75 replies to this topic

[Dirkdaring]

I love the L2P people. They just don't get it. It's the same thats happened the last 6+ years in WoW.

Guess who its OP against? Noobs in PuGs.
Guess who complains the most? Noobs in PuGs.
Guess who the developer always ends up listening to?

Yeah.

But anyway, game balancing should fix this for the most part. PuGs won't end up fighting premades that are the ones raining fire endlessly against people that don't know how to play against it. At least thats the hope.

[hanitora]

Sarevos, on 04 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Detection is 90% of these battles if they cant figure out where you are until youre in close range i think it will make a huge difference

LRM boat is rarely if ever going to be the one detecting you mate. It's always going to be a brawler shooting your face off or a commando squatting in a bush nearby.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Sarevos, on 04 November 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Lrms firing straight-forward would be worse... Direct fire lrm20s would be horrifying lmao

Like in MW4?Gimme please.And add Arrow missiles for more the lols at ppl crying about LRMs(3000m range in TT ftw...wanna c how much it will be here xD)

[Stabbitha]

As a person who runs an LRM boat, yes, LRM's are OP atm if you stand out in the rain and get wet.

Atlas A7 D-DC, 20+2x15, I can strip most mechs down to their underwear in a matter of 3-4 salvos, sooner if tag/narc are up. And I will never overheat doing it, even on caustic.

The problem is that in adding guidance, you end up getting more hits than you would in tabletop. LRM salvos (indirect as well as direct) are area of effect and require a roll to hit first, then a roll for number of missles that hit. Currently, if you have a clean lock and no obstruction, you'll land 100% of your missles (on TT in the same conditions, you might only land 1/3rd of the missles you fire). LRM's were a method of softening up a target for close range kill, not as a pure long range killer.

This has the side effect of devaluing direct damage builds, particularly heavy/assault if they are too slow to close the distance quickly.

That being said, there are downsides to being a 'boat'. You are virtually defenseless if a scout or medium catches you alone, loss of lock can mean literally tonnes of missles thrown downrange for zero damage. Both of these reasons I why I rarely PUG my LRM boat because I end up dead most of the time.

The core problem will always be that the game has taken some tabletop rules but has forgotton the TT element of luck, ie. everything depends on dice rolls. The game is balanced around that randomness but a spotter + a LRM boat doesn't really have much randomness if they can keep the target in the open. If your missles can find it, you can kill it. This is why min/max builds are so predominate, there is no reason to use stock mechs which might dabble in a bit of long/short or ballistic/laser/missle mixes. You concentrate on what you want to do and build the whole mech around that theme.

[Quxudica]

hanitora, on 04 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

So what the hell is your point?

So much anger. Take deep, even breaths and count to ten before you pull something. Yes I use them, I use them because they are effective, my favorite mech is my Jenner and is what I spend the most time in (pure energy variant) but it's also behind the curve against anything carrying streaks - as such I have that stuff too and switch around.

Not sure what ideas you are referring to, the only thing I mentioned was that I'd like to see some type of active counter measure such as chaff or flares. Pretty non-descript off the cuff suggestion that you seem to have taken far to seriously. I freely admit I have no magic bullet to solve the lrm issue, as I said the problem is so inherent to the core design of the weapon that it may not be fixable without over nerfing it.

The problem isn't with people using small LRM launchers as a secondary weapon, it's when large numbers of them get spammed together that the effect goes up exponentially - unequal to the effort invested. Unfortunately there's no real way to fix that without unduly hurting non-boat loadouts or making it useless as a back up weapon. Still, I firmly believe that if something is going to have such a major effect on a battle as even one LRM boat can, it should require an equal amount of effort from that lrm boat pilot. I'm not a fan of lazy gameplay, even when I'm pushed into using it since I'm a performance junkie.

If you want a real idea to spit rage at, heres one: I'd love to of had Mech Mortars added to the game from lore instead of LRMs, have the pilot aim the arc trajectory unguided, and let the pilot set the altitude for the round to airburst into multiple smaller cluster bombs with minimal tracking ability over a reasonably large area. Just a rough idea off the top of my head but it would be a lot more enjoyable and rewarding to use. Could even be far more damaging if it's significantly harder to use.

Perhaps when ECM is introduced lrm effectiveness will drop off sharply, I kind of doubt it but we will see. I still have the same problem with ECM as I do with AMS though, they are passive countermeasures and as such something you don't really need to think about as the user and only cursory thought needs to go into them (well ams anyway, ecm is yet to be determined) as an attacker.

[SamizdatCowboy]

Dirkdaring, on 04 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

But anyway, game balancing should fix this for the most part. PuGs won't end up fighting premades that are the ones raining fire endlessly against people that don't know how to play against it. At least thats the hope.

While I disagree with your implication the problem is purely L2P (that's garbage because, again, there ARE game mechanics also at fault here) I do agree that having a better match-making system where pugs only play pugs and premades only play premades will dramatically improve things for everyone...

[Kaijin]

Stabbitha, on 04 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

The core problem will always be that the game has taken some tabletop rules but has forgotton the TT element of luck, ie. everything depends on dice rolls. The game is balanced around that randomness but a spotter + a LRM boat doesn't really have much randomness if they can keep the target in the open. If your missles can find it, you can kill it. This is why min/max builds are so predominate, there is no reason to use stock mechs which might dabble in a bit of long/short or ballistic/laser/missle mixes. You concentrate on what you want to do and build the whole mech around that theme.

The core problem with all arguments made against LRMs in MWO, drawing on how LRM hit determination depended on roll of dice in TT is that there seems to be mass amnesia concerning how this was the way hit determination was carried out for ALL weapons. You can aim direct-fire weapons and even SRMs in MWO - You never could in TT.

[Sarevos]

hanitora, on 04 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

LRM boat is rarely if ever going to be the one detecting you mate. It's always going to be a brawler shooting your face off or a commando squatting in a bush nearby.

yea but if he cant find you by glancing over you likely hes going to pass you by. you have never powered down on forest colony by the cave entrance tower i take it? they always walk right pass you and then get pincered. yes youre going to be targeted if you are standing in someones face but it gives the ability for a fast strike unit to use stealth to pick off their support

[Ashnod]

LRM's are fine players just need to play more time crisis and learn how to use cover

[hanitora]

Quote

you'll land 100% of your missles

No you don't. Maybe on a completely still target that also happens to be the size of an Atlas or one that is TAGed. With 2 LRM 20s and one 15, you'd instagib most anyone if all your missiles actually hit. As in 1 barrage, dead.
Smaller the mech, the more shots miss. TAG makes a huge difference as well.

Quote

So much anger. Take deep, even breaths and count to ten before you pull something.

I refuse to read the rest of your post after your first line was an appeal to ridicule. You have no respect for the people you talk to, I have none for you.

Edited by hanitora, 04 November 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Apex Predat0r]

SamizdatCowboy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Right now there is just no adequate defense against this offense (especially considering that terrain does NOT currently block missiles correctly).

Haven't you ever watched your own damage counter or whatever you want to call the paper cutout... The LRMs visually go through builings and hills, and make noise, and rock the cockpit, but do NOT do damage. Most of the time. I know because I'm always watching that.

[John Norad]

On the TT, spotting decreases to hit chances, especially if the spotter moves.
In MW:O, spotting seems to have no drawbacks.

Maybe direct and indirect LRM fire should be differentiated a bit more?

[SamizdatCowboy]

Apex Predat0r, on 04 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

Haven't you ever watched your own damage counter or whatever you want to call the paper cutout... The LRMs visually go through builings and hills, and make noise, and rock the cockpit, but do NOT do damage. Most of the time. I know because I'm always watching that.

I mean, my mech 'cutout' as you call it flashes, and depending on the volley the damage color shades change, but without HTAL it's hard to say precisely if there is less damage and it's just graphics effects making it seem worse than it is...

Interesting point though, I'll watch it more closely next time and report back if I notice a difference...

[Apex Predat0r]

Yes please do. I've noticed that LRMs pentrate the Citadel on river city.
I usually jump strait to it and peek my cockpit around the corner to spot mechs. This sometimes brings a hail of LRM fire at me. I always reverse while the missile are airborne, and watch them fly through the building. Never hurts though.

[New Breed]

AMS needs to be better

[axeman]

Keifomofutu, on 04 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

You say that like jenners don't last longer than Atlas in combat(short of 6 racks of ssrms).

I think this is probably my biggest issue at the moment. Through use of cover I'd not get seen or hit by LRMs very much. Occasionally you get caught out of LRM sight and have to duel a spotter who isn't "spotting" so much as doing a hyperactive twist and circle around you whilst you get carpet bombed. At present through lag shield hit detection or whatever, short of being a walking streak battery killing the little ***** is nigh impossible.

Solutions to this would involve fixing whatever it is that makes fast mechs not register damage when you appear to hit them, or possibly making spotting a much more involved process (like say can't be done at 130k running in circles).

Right now scouts don't really have to scout much at all, ie flanking the battle, being forward observers and avoiding trouble. As it stands your average Jenner is just as safe running around you in circles at 130 kms without a care in the world... much more since crashing into other mechs is potentially making them harder to kill with the theorised collision detection bugs than the death sentence it was before.

The other thing is those almost obligatory Atlas D-DC builds serving as 100t Artillery missile systems need to be paying for their ammo to deter such ridiculous spam.

Aside from that though, if you're in the open, getting fired on by mechs with LRMs that can see you, or by spotters you can actually kill, then I think the game is kind of working as intended.

[Adeptus Odren]

SamizdatCowboy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

MWO is trending towards artillery battles, where each side has majority lrm boats and a few lights to spot. R

Cheers

No offense intended, but isn't artillery called "king of the battlefield"? So it's fine if artillery (in the form of lrms) makes or breaks a battle. But lrms aren't that scary. Load up on AMS, stick together, have fast mediums and lights scare the lrm boats and your team should be fine.

[Yelir]

I just wish lrms wouldnt clip through cover. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed. Tired of being under a bridge or behind a building and having the lrm's go right through it.

[hanitora]

SleepWarz, on 04 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I just wish lrms wouldnt clip through cover. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed. Tired of being under a bridge or behind a building and having the lrm's go right through it.

They don't clip through cover.

That bridge on river city? I sit under it in my Raven for as long as it takes to spot a gausscat lining up a shot and just eat LRM barrage after LRM barrage as they harmlessly hit the bridge.

[GutPunch]

The counter will come in the form of better netcode. If you can destory Jenners with focused, non missile fire then they start fearing the LRM scout job. Right now, the lag is terrible and they don't fear it.

Nov 6th rollback of netcode should do a bunch to fix this problem.