42 replies to this topic

[Nehroku]

slackermagee, on 04 November 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

You want to balance things out? Clamor for weapon slot sizes as seen in MW4. Catapault problems solved.

MW4 got the loadout system darn near perfect, been playing it some this week and it just works. MWO has a long way to go to balance things out.

[MustrumRidcully]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

See, the ironic part of it is that I can tell what they're doing: despite the fact that in TT mechs can be heat neutral, in the fiction pilots worry about heat all the time, and they want to give us that feeling by including heat as a mechanic that can't simply be ignored by putting enough sinks on your mech.

The problem is, of course, that it royally F's game balance.

And the trick to give us the feeling would be to increase heat dissipation but lower capacity, so that individual shots matter more, but you can still - with clever firing patterns - "ride the heat scale" and get significant DPS.

Here's the hardcore version of it: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 November 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Lefty Lucy, on 04 November 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Firing *only* the ERPPCs, the stock AWS-9M generates 39 heat.

With full-strength, 2.0 DHS, it dissipates 40 heat per 10 seconds, allowing you an effective fire rate of once every 10 seconds. That's with *canon* DHS values.

With 1.4 DHS it dissipates only 28 heat per 10 seconds. Allowing an effective fire rate of once every 14 seconds.

I just don't see how anyone can see this and not see how it is completely broken.

Oops: edit for bad math

Oh, and for the record, for those people that will keep the trigger pressed:

20 * 1.4 = 28 Dissipation over 10 seconds; Heat Capaciy = 30 + 20 * 1.4 = 58 heat capacity; Heat Generation: 39 over 10 seconds; Net Gain: 11 heat over 10 seconds; Based on averages, you'd overheat after 5.27 seconds, but actually it's precisely after 3 seconds, on the second alpha.

For a whopping 60 damage total you overheat in 3 seconds.
If you had used 2 Gauss Rifles, you'd be at 60 seconds just one second later. And even if you had no heat sinks (you can't, but if you could), you could launch about 15 salvos of those...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 November 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 November 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

And the trick to give us the feeling would be to increase heat dissipation but lower capacity, so that individual shots matter more, but you can still - with clever firing patterns - "ride the heat scale" and get significant DPS.

Here's the hardcore version of it: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Yep, I agree. I suggested something similar in CB, and got a *lot* of support for it. Got a lot of hate for it too, but that's the nature of these forums.

[Jacmac]

I see the whole DHS 1.4 thing is boiling down to one simple truth if they implement DHS as 1.4 and keep them at 1.4: Nobody that understands how heat works will create and field a high energy build. Those that don't understand will waste a bunch of money trying to make them work only to realize that they have just wasted millions of C-Bills on a lost cause. Does anyone here think they will see an AWS-8Q on the field under this heat system - ever?

The only time you'll see energy builds at all are those that can go close to heat neutral with low-end energy builds like all small lasers (although with the "fix" to the lasers I'm not even sure that will pan out). All of the DPS is in ballistic/missile builds at this point, and it looks like it's going to stay that way.

[Clay Pigeon]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 04 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

because your engine heatsinks were not DHS before, after Nov. 6 they will be?

heat system may yet need some love though. same for the gauss rifle needing a refire nurf OR giving heat inline with the AC20, just like every other weapon.

The patch tomorrow will actually reduce the dissipation on the 9m. The non-free engine heatsinks are currently not broken.

[Joseph Mallan]

lsp, on 04 November 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

It's only the best option right now, because the heat system sucks.

So Nerf the item that would have made the heat system managable for high heat builds?
...
...
...
Before we even have them implemented correctly to begin with???

[Lightfoot]

@OP

Absolutely correct. Even with the old borked DHS's it would shutdown for 30 seconds after firing the 4th or 5th time. Now it's getting a heat nerf, RFOL!

My best advice to PGI is to adjust the heat of the weapons if they don't fit the 2.0 DHS scale. You are going at the problem backwards.

[dal10]

if heat sucks so much, how can I get 4-5 kills a game in my quad ERPPC atlas with single heatsinks?

[MustrumRidcully]

dal10, on 05 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

if heat sucks so much, how can I get 4-5 kills a game in my quad ERPPC atlas with single heatsinks?

Mechs and weapons ar enot the only thing that can suck. Other players can, too.

But we don't balance weapons by hoping that the good ones are used by weak players and the bad ones are used by good players.

[Lightfoot]

dal10, on 05 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

if heat sucks so much, how can I get 4-5 kills a game in my quad ERPPC atlas with single heatsinks?

Because Single Heatsinks work. Plus the Atlas has the space for 40 heatsinks. If you want some pain go buy an AWS-9M.

[Vermaxx]

The gauss rifle is overpowered. This from one of its loudest defenders.

2.0DHS would have made the gauss a little less impressive. Since we're not getting 2.0DHS, the gauss is now overpowered.

Because nothing can effectively challenge it.

[Lefty Lucy]

dal10, on 05 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

if heat sucks so much, how can I get 4-5 kills a game in my quad ERPPC atlas with single heatsinks?

Because your opponents are really bad. Or you're making stuff up.

[John Norad]

dal10, on 05 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

if heat sucks so much, how can I get 4-5 kills a game in my quad ERPPC atlas with single heatsinks?

Because
1. that build depends on burst damage / alpha strike and not sustained dps
2. an Atlas isn't destroyed easily if it shuts down

So pretty much for every non assault mech that doesn't sport massive armor and apha strike, it doesn't work.

[Draco Argentum]

MustrumRidcully, on 05 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Mechs and weapons ar enot the only thing that can suck. Other players can, too.

But we don't balance weapons by hoping that the good ones are used by weak players and the bad ones are used by good players.

Exactly this. But in every online game ever people always trot out "I do well with it so its balanced". It goes perfectly with "I can beat it so its not OP." I need to come up with a catchy name for those. The Oberoni Fallacy really helped bring "its not broken if the DM can fix it" into the open in PnP RPG discssions.

[Guy Grand]

ITT: RP mary sues hit iron wall of game mechanics and personal lack of skill, tears flow.

[Lootee]

You don't see the problem with a weapon doing roughly 300% as much damage as its closest competitor and supposed energy based equivalent ?

The one that needs to L2P is you. Because if you had the slightest clue about BattleTech or math in general you'd see something was horribly broken.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 05 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Like a Sir]

I'm just excited that tomorrow I will actually have to pay to "upgrade" to single heat sinks, and start saving up another 5-6 million cbills for an engine smaller then the 385xl, to make my AWS-9M with 4 medium pulses and some srms, not suck... Thank you PGI for that, thank you so much... shmucks

You know I am done complaining, hoping just like the previous things that got broken and fixed in the closed beta, this will get fixed. Just wish they could do basic math there and not release the system that is even more broken, then the current one, could at least do 1.5-1.6 this way the heat would be at least the same, and not worse, then it is now for us bigger guys...

Also the fact, that they are so scared of having small/medium laser boats run around shooting 1-2 alphas more before overheating is pathetic. They could at least give doubles a shot for a week, to see if the AC-20, Large Pulses, PPC's and ERPPCs would get used a little more, and how they would stack up against those terrifying laser boats..

Edited for sanity.

Edited by Like a Sir, 05 November 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Jetfire]

Gauss needs an 8 second CD and then I think the playing field gets a lot more level and 1.4 or 1.5 DHS make a lot more sense. I sense a gauss nerf coming.

[Guy Grand]

PanchoTortilla, on 05 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

You don't see the problem with a weapon doing roughly 300% as much damage as its closest competitor and supposed energy based equivalent ?

The one that needs to L2P is you. Because if you had the slightest clue about BattleTech or math in general you'd see something was horribly broken.

It is a heavy, glass cannon. To properly Gauss cat, you have to either take a serious hit in speed for your mech, or save up to buy an XL of equivalent rating or lower still. The ammo is at 10/ton. The only place it can be argued that Gauss cat is overpowered is if you are dumb enough to take one on in the open, from a long distance. Get in close, (perhaps behind?) he is too slow and too delicate.

If (IF!) heat and dps were the only considerations as to what is OP, then you might have a good argument. But they are not; there are more things that go into a mech, and go into piloting a mech, then that.

Your argument fails because it is based on the premise that heat and dps are the only things to be considered. They are not. Ergo, though your reasong, is correct, the premises are what fail. They fail by only including conditions which are necessary but not sufficient to considerations of power and ability on a mech. Team work, fire and movement, and piloting your mech well, this is the effective counter to a Gauss cat, as with any glass cannon.

tl;dr You are terrible at reasoning and probably also at piloting mechs.