53 replies to this topic

[Spiralcrisis]

I decided to do research on one of my favorite weapons, the Streak SRM. Turns out from the Helm Memory Core the Inner Sphere adapted just the SSRM2 in 3035. The SSRM4 and six don't appear until 3058 in response to recovered clan salvage. This makes me sad. This means I'll have to carry multiple SSRM2s into battle. Okay, rant over. Enjoy and dicuss.

[pursang]

Uhm... yes...?

[Ian MacLeary]

Yeah, not a problem as far as I'm concerned. I can mount 3 SSRM-2s in place of the SRM-4 and SRM-6 in my Commando, carry only one ton of ammo, add TAG, CASE, and max out the armor. It will give me roughly the same average firepower delivered; I'll lose out on max damage but using SRMs you rarely get that anyway, between missing entirely and cluster-hit rolls. I should also be able to stay in the battle for about the same length of time without running out of ammo (assuming I don't blow up first).

[Alexander Fury]

Never really understood this one. Whats the big deal with not being able to build SSRM-4 and 6 when you can build SSRM2's?? Like fine the Helm memory core only contained scematics for the 2's. Fine, dandy, but did it really take the NAIS and other oganizations who would have been working on this to say: ''Duh!....lets stick a couple of these toghter!'' Cummon. It took us less than 20years to go from a phone the size of a brick to phones that are a chocking hazzard to small children, the best R&D guys in the IS could not figure this one out in 20years.

Just saying!

[EDMW CSN]

Alexander Fury, on 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Never really understood this one. Whats the big deal with not being able to build SSRM-4 and 6 when you can build SSRM2's?? Like fine the Helm memory core only contained scematics for the 2's. Fine, dandy, but did it really take the NAIS and other oganizations who would have been working on this to say: ''Duh!....lets stick a couple of these toghter!'' Cummon. It took us less than 20years to go from a phone the size of a brick to phones that are a chocking hazzard to small children, the best R&D guys in the IS could not figure this one out in 20years.

Just saying!

Well 3 things.

1) A Streak SRM4 is as compact as Streak SRM2.
A Streak SRM6 is more compact than 3 Streak SRM2s.

2) A Streak SRM2 generates 2 heat.
Streak SRM4 generates 3 heat.
Streak SRM6 generates only 4 heat.

3) Targeting requirements. You need a computer that ensure all missiles hits, tacking them together does not magically make it do so.


As for pts 1 & 2, it is pretty much self explanatory. They are trying to miniaturize the launchers (loading mechanism, computer, launcher all the good stuff) and yet at the same time REDUCING heat build up ? Not to mention same reload times ???

That is tech advancement no ? It will take time

In any case, nothing is stopping you mount 3 SSRM2s together for 1 SSRM6. Except more heat and more crits used.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 13 April 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Motionless]

When are they going to invent SRM8?

[Thomas Hogarth]

Motionless, on 12 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

When are they going to invent SRM8?

There is the MML-9...

[Motionless]

Thomas Hogarth, on 12 April 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

There is the MML-9...

Yeah but the tonnage and critical usage is much higher. I want a dedicated short range weapon system with less costs.

Also I hate odd numbers!

[Thomas Hogarth]

I'm guessing we won't see a SRM system with efficiencies higher than the SRM-6. It's already fairly easy to boat them - you don't see it too often in MW due to the unguided nature of SRMs, but it's quite common on tabletop.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

Yeah but the tonnage and critical usage is much higher. I want a dedicated short range weapon system with less costs.

Also I hate odd numbers!

Need dedicated short-range weapon?
Don't like uneven numbers?
Why not Zoidberg MRMs?

Although those don't appear until 3058 either.

[LordDeathStrike]

catapult, check, 10 srm 2s, check, city map, check.


lets rocket!

[Spiralcrisis]

I almost feel like the fact that I'm talking about streak missles has been lost. Also part of why this has made me sad is because I want to make my Centurion an urban fighter and at least one streak lancher was going to be part of that. Just having the Streak 2 makes it just a tad bit more difficult. FYI my base variant if possible was going to be the CN9-D.

[pursang]

Spiralcrisis, on 13 April 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

I almost feel like the fact that I'm talking about streak missles has been lost. Also part of why this has made me sad is because I want to make my Centurion an urban fighter and at least one streak lancher was going to be part of that. Just having the Streak 2 makes it just a tad bit more difficult. FYI my base variant if possible was going to be the CN9-D.

And I want a Night Wolf with an ice cream disspenser, unfortunately we can't always get what we want. That is life.

[Spiralcrisis]

pursang, on 13 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

And I want a Night Wolf with an ice cream disspenser, unfortunately we can't always get what we want. That is life.

So true. Oh well, guess I'll just make do. I just needed to get it off my chest.

[Gigaton]

Spiralcrisis, on 13 April 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

I almost feel like the fact that I'm talking about streak missles has been lost. Also part of why this has made me sad is because I want to make my Centurion an urban fighter and at least one streak lancher was going to be part of that. Just having the Streak 2 makes it just a tad bit more difficult. FYI my base variant if possible was going to be the CN9-D.

I don't know what your BTU background is, but you do know that SRM launchers always have same tonnage cost per missile, right? You can have all 3 launchers feeding from the same 1 ton of ammo, so it's different from MW:4 for example. 1 IS SSRM-6 is 5.5 tons with ton of ammo, 3 IS SSRM-2 is 5.5 tons with 1 ton of ammo.

That being said, 3 x Streak SRM-2 need more crits (3) and generate more heat than 1 SSRM-6. CN9-D will get to mount at least 2, or maybe three of those (3 if it either gets unused missile hardpoint crit or if Artemis IV goes into missile slot, 4 if both are true).

Edited by Gigaton, 13 April 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[Voidreaver]

Alexander Fury, on 12 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Never really understood this one. Whats the big deal with not being able to build SSRM-4 and 6 when you can build SSRM2's?? Like fine the Helm memory core only contained scematics for the 2's. Fine, dandy, but did it really take the NAIS and other oganizations who would have been working on this to say: ''Duh!....lets stick a couple of these toghter!'' Cummon. It took us less than 20years to go from a phone the size of a brick to phones that are a chocking hazzard to small children, the best R&D guys in the IS could not figure this one out in 20years.

Just saying!

The "big issue" with not having SSRM-4s and SSRM-6s is simple enough really... thermal and weight efficiency.
Ah... here we go... A "Prima's Official Strategy Guide" for MechWarrior 3... love that game btw.


I'm going by point values,for this comparison, okay? Bear with me...

SRM-2
Weight: 1 Ton
Heat Per Shot: 2

SRM-4
Weight: 2 Tons
Heat Per Shot: 3

SRM-6
Weight: 3 Tons
Heat Per Shot: 4

Notice the differences here? The SRM-2 is... okay. But the SRM-4 is distinctly more efficient alone, than a pair of SRM-2s that'd deal comparable damage. Even so, the SRM-4s are, oddly, even more efficient than the SRM-6s...

Let's squeeze 6 Tons of SRMs onto a 'Mech, hm?

SRM-2 Payload (6 SRM-2s)
Weight: 6 Tons
Heat Per Salvo: 12

SRM-4 Payload (3 SRM-4s)
Weight: 6 Tons
Heat Per Salvo: 9

SRM-6 Payload (2 SRM-6s)
Weight: 6 Tons
Heat Per Salvo: 8

NOW we see the benefit of the somewhat inefficient SRM-6, correct? Now, admittedly, the advantage to the SRM-6s comes into play.
Now you see why some would complain of the lack of the SRM-4s and 6s, I hope.

[Voidreaver]

Personally, if there was one thing I didn't like in the shift from MechWarrior 3 to MechWarrior 4, it's the changes made to SRMs...

In MW3, SRMs can lock-on targets same as LRMs,
In MW4, you have the dumbfire Inner Sphere SRMs, and the target-seeking Clan Streak SRMs... makes no sense to me.

[Voidreaver]

[EDMW]CSN, on 12 April 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Well 3 things.

1) A Streak SRM4 is as compact as Streak SRM2.
A Streak SRM6 is more compact than 3 Streak SRM2s.

2) A Streak SRM2 generates 2 heat.
Streak SRM4 generates 3 heat.
Streak SRM6 generates only 4 heat.

3) Targeting requirements. You need a computer that ensure all missiles hits, tacking them together does not magically make it do so.


As for pts 1 & 2, it is pretty much self explanatory. They are trying to miniaturize the launchers (loading mechanism, computer, launcher all the good stuff) and yet at the same time REDUCING heat build up ? Not to mention same reload times ???

That is tech advancement no ? It will take time

In any case, nothing is stopping you mount 3 SSRM2s together for 1 SSRM6. Except more heat and more crits used.

I should point you, [EDMW]CSN, to my prior posting regarding MW3-era comparisons of the SRM series. Please take advantage of that, ok?

[Gigaton]

Voidreaver, on 13 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

In MW3, SRMs can lock-on targets same as LRMs,
In MW4, you have the dumbfire Inner Sphere SRMs, and the target-seeking Clan Streak SRMs... makes no sense to me.

Fair point. Seems this is of those things many pre-beta forumites will lean on their MW4 experience for, as evidenced by:

Thomas Hogarth, on 13 April 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

I'm guessing we won't see a SRM system with efficiencies higher than the SRM-6. It's already fairly easy to boat them - you don't see it too often in MW due to the unguided nature of SRMs, but it's quite common on tabletop.

But yeah, all SRMs are guided according to fluff. Streaks just have better guidance.

Edited by Gigaton, 13 April 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

@Spiralcrisis

Don't worry too much. The SSRM2 is a wonderfully efficient weapon (in TT anyway) and roughly equal to a medium laser (also very efficient). Assuming you are fitting an AC/20 on your Centurion, I would predict you should be able to fit at least two on with little difficulty, and far more if you downgrade the main weapon.

From what I can tell, the devs are definitely trying to balance the weapons closer to TT damage tables (this is a good thing for SSRM2s).

Trading the AC/20 for a PPC would give you ample room to load up on SSRMs and give you a nice balance of long and short range punch. You could even save tonnage by going light on the heatsinks as long as you remembered to not use the PPC once you got in SRM range.

@Voidreaver

You are missing one important thing in your comparison tables: you are using Clan tech comparisons... the IS versions are essentially the same, but slightly heavier.

(SKIP DOWN TO CONCLUSION IF YOU DON'T LIKE READING CHARTS)

The IS Streak tech is significantly less efficient in the larger models:

Clan
SSRM2 = 4 damage, 2 heat, 1 tons
SSRM4 = 8 damage, 3 heat, 2 tons
SSRM6 = 12 damage, 4 heat, 3 tons

Tonnage and heat increase at roughly an even curve

Inner Sphere
SSRM2 = 4 damage, 2 heat, 1.5 tons
SSRM4 = 8 damage, 3 heat, 3 tons
SSRM6 = 12 damage, 4 heat, 4.5 tons

In the Battletech TT, the SSRM/6 was easily one of the most powerful and efficient weapons you could fit on a mech. It was balanced by the fact that it was initially only available to Clans (at first they were the foil to pit advanced players against... in gamer terms; boss fight) and rather rare and expensive to equip.

However, while a battery of SSRM2s will run 50% hotter than SSRM6s for the same weight, it is still FAR more "efficient" than many other options, especially an AC/20 (that's an IS AC/20 btw ):

x5 SSRM2s = 20 damage, 10 heat, 7.5 tons
x1 AC20 = 20 damage, 7 heat, 14 tons!

The bank of SSRMs take up less space as well as tonnage and still save ample weight to pack on extra heatsinks, ammo, and weapons. You are of course trading direct impact damage for more spread damage, but you gain general DPS efficiency and it looks like MWO is already getting away from previous pinpoint laser accuracy of previous titles (a good thing).

Here's another way of looking at it. Compare it to THE MOST efficient weapon, the Medium Laser:

x1 SSRM2 = 4 damage, 2 heat, 1.5 tons
x1 Medium Laser = 5 damage, 3 heat, 1 ton

Now SSRMs require ammo, but if you double or triple up SSRM2s with 1 ton of ammo (50 shots) the weight cost for ammo is diminished:

x3 SSRM2 = 12 damage, 6 heat, 4.5 tons + 6 heat sinks (for heat) + 1 ton of ammo = 11.5 tons total w/16~ shots for each launcher (usually enough)
x3 Medium Lasers = 15 damage, 9 heat, 3 tons + 9 heat sinks (for heat) = 12 tons total

CONCLUSION:

The key point to walk away from this is that if you are a fan of Streaks, even the SRM2 model is still a very viable option. This is of course assuming they don't screw up the damage tables like M$ did, but from what I've read and heard so far, these devs are far more in touch with the original source material than any previous (official) product.

I am cautiously trusting the devs on stuff like this.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 13 April 2012 - 08:05 PM.