26 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

ECM was never installed on every 'Mech. It shouldn't be available in every 'Mech otherwise it will make really powerful 'Mechs even better. Use ECM (and other electronics) to buff weaker chassis.

For instance:

Raven - ECM
Jenner - No ECM

Now it's a tactical choice of chassis rather than an instant pick of Jenner w/ECM.

Insanity

Edited by HRR Insanity, 04 November 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Grimmenstein]

I don't think limiting ECM by chasis is the right answer. Making it prohibitively expensive in both money and xp might work, but the devs will probably just nerf its effectiveness just like the did to the DHS.

[Rattlehead NZ]

Or to build on what your suggesting:

Give certain mechs like the Raven a mech skill that gives them a boost to the ecm ability of the standard ecm modules abilities. So everyone can have a bit of extra protection, but specialized chassis become the elite in their field.

[HRR Insanity]

Grimmenstein, on 04 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I don't think limiting ECM by chasis is the right answer. Making it prohibitively expensive in both money and xp might work, but the devs will probably just nerf its effectiveness just like the did to the DHS.

Money and xp don't make balance. In-game behavior makes balance. Not matter how much it costs, someone will get it and then it needs to be balanced.

Rattlehead NZ, on 04 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Or to build on what your suggesting:

Give certain mechs like the Raven a mech skill that gives them a boost to the ecm ability of the standard ecm modules abilities. So everyone can have a bit of extra protection, but specialized chassis become the elite in their field.

Completely agree with this concept as well. Having the Raven get a 30-50% effect bonus would definitely differentiate it from the Jenner.

Insanity

Edited by HRR Insanity, 04 November 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Giving certain makes skill bonuses towards something is an interesting concept... But at the same time I think it limits or guides user customizations. If you make the AC-5 have bonus on a Catapult then people will start using more AC-5's.

However... If they did something like that they could give the Raven a skill that supports the ECM and the Jenner a skill that boosts the AMS.

[HRR Insanity]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 04 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Giving certain makes skill bonuses towards something is an interesting concept... But at the same time I think it limits or guides user customizations. If you make the AC-5 have bonus on a Catapult then people will start using more AC-5's.

However... If they did something like that they could give the Raven a skill that supports the ECM and the Jenner a skill that boosts the AMS.

This issue is why I'm more in favor of making modules 'Mech specific. MW4 did it and it was very well implemented.

Insanity

[Grimmenstein]

Now equipment boosts based on chasis is an Idea that I can get behind. It does lead customization, which is something I believe this game needs. A raven is supposed to be hard to find, a jenner is supposed to be hard to hit, etc etc.

Cannon use of mechs is important, but so is customization. I think leading customization with xp tweaks would be a good balance between these concepts.

[Foxwalker]

Before we start talking about how to handicap a new tech, we should at least see how it is implemented in the game. From the descriptions in the books and in previous games I have not seen BAP or ECM worth the weight trade off, rather than adding more weapons, heat sinks or armor. Just my two cents. No one I know is using NARC at this point, and TAG since they increased the weight, is often a hard choice.

[Grimmenstein]

Narc is useless, Tag is only useful in a premade. While Pubing there is no guarantee that you will have an LRM boat on board.

Narc could easily be made viable by making it last longer and provide target information without LOS.

Edited by Grimmenstein, 04 November 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Like the Narc Suggestion. Narc is pointless... at this point.... =)

[Asmudius Heng]

Totally agree ... all mechs are starting to merge into one and the other and role warfare being sacrificed ... but even worse mech diversity is being sacrificed.

Each chassis needs to have a differentiator because with enough variants you can do what you like with various hardpoints anyway it is not enough.

Diversity, roles, niches - this is so damned important to the game and PGIs business model

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Actually... I wouldn't be opposed to Variant specific skills... This version of the jenner gets a bonus on certain weapons or utilities ect. as opposed to this other variant of the jenner.

[General Taskeen]

We already have engine limits, jump jet limits, hard point limits. So yeah, let's have ECM limits, I mean who needs customization anyways?

[Draco Argentum]

Electronics hardpoints are a must. There is no reason to use a slow Raven if a Jenner can mount the same EW fitout and be faster.

[Asmudius Heng]

General Taskeen, on 04 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

We already have engine limits, jump jet limits, hard point limits. So yeah, let's have ECM limits, I mean who needs customization anyways?

People who value diversity and not just having the same chassis for any role they need.

Oh and people who understand that some limitations actually create more creativity than open customisation which leads to the gun bag problem where only a few optimal builds rule the battlefields.

Just those guys ... you know

[Renthrak]

Already a thread for this:

Limit ECM to specifc chassis

[Grimmenstein]

Asmudius Heng, on 04 November 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Totally agree ... all mechs are starting to merge into one and the other and role warfare being sacrificed ... but even worse mech diversity is being sacrificed.

Each chassis needs to have a differentiator because with enough variants you can do what you like with various hardpoints anyway it is not enough.

Diversity, roles, niches - this is so damned important to the game and PGIs business model

I see this as the biggest problem PGI faces in game right now. There needs to be a reason to take something other than a Jenner. But limiting equipment is not the best answer IMHO. I really like the Idea of equipment bonuses for individual mech variants.

[Asmudius Heng]

Grimmenstein, on 04 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I see this as the biggest problem PGI faces in game right now. There needs to be a reason to take something other than a Jenner. But limiting equipment is not the best answer IMHO. I really like the Idea of equipment bonuses for individual mech variants.

That is certainly one way ... this comes down to the same problem we have with the word 'nerf' ... people think it is a bad thing when all it relates to is an issue of balance. Instead people just say put everything 'up' to the same level.

It is kind of a way to say hey look at us we are allowing so much variety and creativity! When really they could just go hard on restrictions on some issues.

Basically its the carrot or the stick .... gotta be a balance of both but too much carrot or too much stick is bad.

[Grimmenstein]

Asmudius Heng, on 04 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

That is certainly one way ... this comes down to the same problem we have with the word 'nerf' ... people think it is a bad thing when all it relates to is an issue of balance. Instead people just say put everything 'up' to the same level.

It is kind of a way to say hey look at us we are allowing so much variety and creativity! When really they could just go hard on restrictions on some issues.

Basically its the carrot or the stick .... gotta be a balance of both but too much carrot or too much stick is bad.

Absolutely, balancing the carrot and the stick is important. I feel like I have gotten the stick to much lately. I want some carrot. "Ehrmegehrd Kehrrehrts"

Edited by Grimmenstein, 04 November 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[Ciel Noir]

Grimmenstein, on 04 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

I don't think limiting ECM by chasis is the right answer. Making it prohibitively expensive in both money and xp might work, but the devs will probably just nerf its effectiveness just like the did to the DHS.

From what I remember... Only the Raven and Men Shen, the dedicated electronics mechs, have the capability to install these devices...