40 replies to this topic

[KKyojii]

It seems like risk/reward and skill/damage output is very off. All I need to do is sit back in my Awesome with 2 LRM 20's and 2 LRM 15's and press 1 then laugh as everyone dies in 2-3 volleys.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this but IMO sitting back and firing rockets is just plain easy and gives too much reward. It also makes pushing in very difficult with the exceptions of maps with a lot of cover.

[SmurfOff]

KKyojii, on 04 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

It seems like risk/reward and skill/damage output is very off. All I need to do is sit back in my Awesome with 2 LRM 20's and 2 LRM 15's and press 1 then laugh as everyone dies in 2-3 volleys.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this but IMO sitting back and firing rockets is just plain easy and gives too much reward. It also makes pushing in very difficult with the exceptions of maps with a lot of cover.

But a team of LRM boats with not scouts is easily defeated...
Or a smart Opposing force would use terrain masking to close the range.
Or ...
LRMs are deadly, but so is your AC/20 if you can move it into range.
Tactics are much deadlier than the weapon loadouts

[Rattlehead NZ]

KKyojii, on 04 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

It seems like risk/reward and skill/damage output is very off. All I need to do is sit back in my Awesome with 2 LRM 20's and 2 LRM 15's and press 1 then laugh as everyone dies in 2-3 volleys.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this but IMO sitting back and firing rockets is just plain easy and gives too much reward. It also makes pushing in very difficult with the exceptions of maps with a lot of cover.

It also comes down too the people your fighting. Taking out LRM Awesomes is my favorite thing but standing out in the open and not using cover to block locks and missile flight paths is up to the pilot. Plus with AMS and the new ECM coming, you will appreciate the current damage system when its harder it hit your targets.

[Grimmenstein]

Rattlehead NZ, on 04 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

It also comes down too the people your fighting. Taking out LRM Awesomes is my favorite thing but standing out in the open and not using cover to block locks and missile flight paths is up to the pilot. Plus with AMS and the new ECM coming, you will appreciate the current damage system when its harder it hit your targets.

What he said, times 10. if you stick to a tight formation and all mechs have ams you can effectively render missles ineffective while closing distance.

[KKyojii]

Grimmenstein, on 04 November 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

What he said, times 10. if you stick to a tight formation and all mechs have ams you can effectively render missles ineffective while closing distance.

That works for competitive matches, but for PuBing it seems like missiles are too easy to get damage/kills. I am sure super amazing players can bypass this but, for the most part people get eaten up by missile damage.

[Grimmenstein]

KKyojii, on 04 November 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

That works for competitive matches, but for PuBing it seems like missiles are too easy to get damage/kills. I am sure super amazing players can bypass this but, for the most part people get eaten up by missile damage.

It Definitely works in coordinated drops, but that doesn't mean its useless for Pubing. If you see a friendly mech taking LRM fire, you have an AMS and are not otherwise engaged, and you don't move to cover him then your team deserves to wipe.

[Foxwalker]

I guess I too am getting tired of the same posts again and again. I feel your pain, but please read through the many posts already generated on this subject. There are excellent points on both sides of this issue. I am on the side that they are not as powerful as you might think in a game populated by experienced players. Players that rely on them will find themselves quickly overwhelmed when enemies close.

[Ravensol]

ok since you did bring it up. hmm ok i'll go with this idea. Insted of lrm 5/10/15/20 refering to the amount of missles make it so every lrm fires 5 missles and the 5/10/15/20 refers to the size of the missle for example the 5's do 1 damage per missle 10's do 2 15's do 2.5 and 20's do 3 also the ammo for them would be individual to each size and reduce in number the bigger you get just like ac ammo.

[TheMightyServo]

As somebody who waded through many, many, many of these posts, especially trying to figure out WTF is up with MWO LRMs, OP is right. That's the reason it keeps coming up as more people see it... especially new MWO players who are old BT players.

As has been elaborated on before in other threads, TT missile damage was 1 per missile, with an average of 60% or so hitting per salvo. Average LRM 15 hit (on average 7 roll) is 9 missiles, for 9 damage. Plenty respectable. MWO, almost always all missiles hit, with 30 damage, 2 per missile. Armor was doubled in part to increase play time, but that reduced other weapons' effectiveness.

Something else folks don't look at as much is the relative inaccuracy of LRM fire in the original game. Battletech was made as a game for big robots to fight heroic, epic battles in space. It was not made so the guy playing the LRM carrier could kill everything the moment someone else gets in range. Battletech is not Agincourt, and mechs are supposed to be the kings of these battlefields, not artillery. Base to hit for LRMs was the firer's range to target, plus firer movement, plus enemy movement, plus modifiers for the spotter (IIRC, +1 for indirect and the +1,2,or 3 for spotters' movement type). You were usually looking at having to roll at least 11s on 2d6 at long range, assuming your spotter at walked and your enemy was moving at least 30kph (3 hexes). Accuracy was poor, even on a slow or disabled target.

The only way you got accurate indirect fire the way it exists in MWO was with a C3 network, which was something unusual, special, and one of the decided advantages the IS had with regards to teamwork; and something an ECM would screw up - which goes to why scouts with C3 and/or ECM becomes important in team-based play. In fact, what happens in MWO right now is almost exactly what you'd get with a C3 network, minus the number of missiles that hit (which would average 60% or so).

There are also still game-fix issues with LRMs that fly through buildings (radar tower building at river city base is bad about this), something the "use cover" argument often fails to address.

Also, mechs like the Archer or Bombadier or Crusader or Salamander did indirect support fire at closer ranges that what we see in MWO. You didn't stand on the other side of the map (unless you had C3), you got in a bit closer to have more accurate fire, especially indirect. If the enemy chose to push in close, they exposed their backs to and got lit up by your front line brawlers. But since other weapons have been nerfed and armor increased, the threat of exposing your back to the enemy isn't the death sentence it would often be in TT.

There's some irony in the first post responding with "tactics defeat loadout", which is the case, and then so many other posts saying "you need AMS" and "huddle together with AMS". Making AMS a necessity when before it was a waste of tonnage just shows that LRMs (and to a lesser extent, SRMs) have been unbalanced in MWO from other BT iterations.

[Darius Otsdarva]

I've seen plenty of these threads pop up before, but since ECM is just a couple of days away we're going to see what kind of impact it'll have on lock on weapons.

If you read the thread "In the Lab" the devs mentioned that it is actually quite a powerful piece of equipment. I'll postpone my thoughts about the state of LRMs until then.

Edited by Darius Otsdarva, 05 November 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[TheMightyServo]

Except ECM means having to change your loadout to deal with a MWO game imbalance, just like AMS.

You shouldn't need ECM unless you're trying to block a Beagle or a C3 network, and how the C3 network, as gear with an advantage works - is basically how LRMs and spotting work now. C3 you pay for in tonnage, needing a team, and C-bills. LRMs as they work now are just jacked up.

[Ravensol]

PGI has one massive problem a board game is not a video game. Using it as the starting point is fine and they should but sticking close to it will do more harm then good if they are trying to expand there audiance. Just look up a few posts at the complete rundown of bt rules for lrms then look at the idea i put forth as a fix for a online video game. The less complicated the system they use the easier it is for plp to understand it and have fun. I really don't think that tweeking the lrm and ams like i mentioned would drive even one mw oldschool fan away but not doing something about what there is now already has.

[Noosemane]

The OP is correct about LRMs. One of two things needs to happen:

1) Damage reduction
2) More spread on the missiles.

[RedHairDave]

i dont see lrm's as op. they can be made totally useless if the team is good, or take all the kills, if the team is terrible. i have gotten over 2000 damage in a lrm boat, and had 7 kills, against new players only. when there is a competent team, the numbers are much much smaller. like 500 or less a round, but in line with direct fire weapons, problem is they spread out, so the direct fire mech is definitely better there.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Not long ago they bumped the damage from missiles because they increased the difficulty to maintain a lock.

[Noth]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 05 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Not long ago they bumped the damage from missiles because they increased the difficulty to maintain a lock.

They didn't make it any more difficult to maintain lock.They bumped the damage to 2.0 while bringing in buffs to the LRMs in teh NARC and TAG

[Agent CraZy DiP]

Um... They Nerfed them hard! It use to still follow after lock faded. Now you have to maintain a lock the whole trip. That's not easy, especially if you have to relay on a jenner with ADHD that doesn't know what they're doing. LRMs have limited ammo and have a high chance to explode. And since you're bringing in NARC and TAG... You're looking at it all wrong. Those aren't a buff to LRMs, those a Buff to teamwork. Again, you have to relay upon a teammate that can land those or keep a TAG on a target while the missiles travel the 1000m's. While that TAG is on you, that brave Jenner is risking his life to end yours. LRMs do NOT need a nerf. People need to grow a pair or find cover. If you're smart enough to rush a volley of missiles then that's your own fault.

[Noth]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 05 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Um... They Nerfed them hard! It use to still follow after lock faded. Now you have to maintain a lock the whole trip. That's not easy, especially if you have to relay on a jenner with ADHD that doesn't know what they're doing. LRMs have limited ammo and have a high chance to explode. And since you're bringing in NARC and TAG... You're looking at it all wrong. Those aren't a buff to LRMs, those a Buff to teamwork. Again, you have to relay upon a teammate that can land those or keep a TAG on a target while the missiles travel the 1000m's. While that TAG is on you, that brave Jenner is risking his life to end yours. LRMs do NOT need a nerf. People need to grow a pair or find cover. If you're smart enough to rush a volley of missiles then that's your own fault.

I find it pretty dang easy. When they made that change the missile still only did 1.8 damage and people were still topping kill and damage boards with the LRMs. They then added TAG and Narc along with bumping the damage up higher. The result is what we have now. Most games come down to LRM spam. Hate to say it but gamers gravitate towards the most powerful things in games. Right now, that is LRMs since they are so safe to use and pack a huge punch.

TAG and Narc are a buff to LRMs as to use them you don't have to do anything other than what you normally do when spotting for LRMs. It's a direct buff to LRMs.

Jenners and lights in general fear very little and can keep the TAG on you while taking very little damage and/or not exposing themselves.

[Volthorne]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

I find it pretty dang easy. When they made that change the missile still only did 1.8 damage and people were still topping kill and damage boards with the LRMs. They then added TAG and Narc along with bumping the damage up higher. The result is what we have now. Most games come down to LRM spam. Hate to say it but gamers gravitate towards the most powerful things in games. Right now, that is LRMs since they are so safe to use and pack a huge punch.

TAG and Narc are a buff to LRMs as to use them you don't have to do anything other than what you normally do when spotting for LRMs. It's a direct buff to LRMs.

Jenners and lights in general fear very little and can keep the TAG on you while taking very little damage and/or not exposing themselves.

When LRMs dealt 1.8 damage, they:

• Had middle of the road clustering
  
• Hit their target from almost 90 degrees (straight down. This means there was NO COVER unless you were directly under something solid)
  
• Were actually Fire-and-forget (Maintain locks? screw that, launch as many salvos at as many people as possible ASAP)

Now, they:

• Have middle of the road clustering (unless you use TAG/NARC)
  
• Hit their target from more of a frontal angle (45-75 degrees, cover is easier to come by now)
  
• Need a lock maintained to hit anything

Please, tell me more about how LRMs are OP (I've been in Beta since June. I doubt you can say the same).

The "lights need nerfs" problem has been around for a damned long time, and the recent removal of knock-downs only impacted the problem to make it seem worse.

Edited by Volthorne, 05 November 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[somerandom18]

LRMs are indeed far to powerful. They are supposed to do 1 damage per missile not 2. We are effectively flinging around LRM 40s and LRM 30s now which don't exist. I dread the day clan LRMs come if they still do 2 damage per missile.