79 replies to this topic

[Terick]

Kobold, on 04 November 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Bumping this thread due to the new information posted here: http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/ Language of consequence: The vast majority of the extra benefits are pretty minor, but this is pretty crazy. Not only does this go wildly beyond the standard use of ECM in TT (which as stated before was a niche piece of equipment with fairly minor benefits), but it completely breaks entire categories of weapon systems.

In small simple words. Wrong. it is completely in line with TT rules. STREAK systems that were nto able to achieve a lock on targets through/in to an ECM cloud. Meaning in TT they would become normal SRMs. WIth the fact you cna't fire STREAKs in MWO with no lock. Your STREAKs are hurt more... but the thought pattern is still within TT rules.

Indirect fire... that is a bit more tricky, since there was not lock on for LRMs in TT, they were more like dumb fire missles that had a minor guidance system.

It may actualy be less effective in MWO then in TT. In TT if I had a mech at in range of your streaks and the target was in an ECM cloud it would be protected, even if your mech wasn't in teh ECM cloud. Now your mech has to be in the ECM cloud to be affected.

Personaly. ECM should be restricted to certain mech chassis that were designed to carry it. That means Jenners wouldn't be abel to carry it. Ravens would. It would make mechs specific for the role you want, Jenner is a raider, Raven is an electronic weapons platform.

[Kobold]

Tekerton, on 27 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Really? You necro'd a 22 day old post to state that nonsense? Yes, it is non-sense because whether you like it or not, data is collected from each account.

No, I necro'd my own post to point out that I was prescient, and had concerns about this issue as soon as PGI told us anything.

[Tekerton]

Kobold, on 27 November 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

No, I necro'd my own post to point out that I was prescient, and had concerns about this issue as soon as PGI told us anything.

I didnt quote you, wasn't talking to you.

[Duvanor]

I think, ECM will become a counter to boats. So you can't target an enemy scout with your LRMs under 180 meters? You can't yet as well. But with ECM your 50+ LRM Mech won't be able to ignore the scout and fire missiles somewhere else. So the LRM boats and Streak boats will need secondary weapons to fight incoming ECM units.

But when you think about it, what are 180 meters? A single ECM Mech can't guard an entire team. And a Jenner that's guarding it's team can't go hunting and harass. Let's say, a Jenner or other Mech goes out to hunt. Send in one of your ECM Mechs to dogfight it. Switch to Counter-ECM and while the ECM Mechs hunt each other there is target data and the missiles will rain down.

I think it is good, as it is. Perhaps they should raise detection of hidden units to 300 meters and give BAP some function, but why not wait till ECM is here and test it some games?

Edited by Duvanor, 27 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Qarnage]

I think like Kobold that the current announced properties of ECM are for some out of place / exaggerated especially when compared to other advanced systems like BAP, which has not benefited of such "bonus" in the ingame adaptation. (since we don't have radars, we don't really have use for shutdown to ambush, hence not that much of use for BAP)

[Roland]

The implementation of ECM described is, in a word, awesome.

It's different from the table top game? DO NOT CARE.

[Duvanor]

@Qarnage:
It depends. I have seen guys shutting down between trees on Forest Colony and another Mech shutting down just next to the enemy Base. That Cataphract was serverly damaged and looked like a wreck. One enemy pilot walked by at least three times and did not recognize it as target because there was no blip sound and red arrow pointing on it.

BAP is not as strong as ECM in this incarnation, but it has its uses. Or would have, if people would try to be more sneaky. Perhaps there will be more obvious opportunities when we get night maps.

[Merrik Starchaser]

I don't think the current idea for ecm will be good for the game at all ams needs a buff

[Duymon]

From what it looks like so far this will be game breaking and in a bad way.

I'll give PGI the benefit of the doubt, but a week after Dec 4 it's hello Planetside 2 depending on how broken MWO is.

[Captain Midnight]

What's wrong with lock-on weapons that don't require any skill whatsoever being easily countered and overall poor choices for a weapons loadout? I don't see the problem. Direct fire weapons that require skill aren't effected by ECM. Only noobs who can't do anything but use LRMs or SSRMs are being punished by ECM.

[Kobold]

Duymon, on 28 November 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

From what it looks like so far this will be game breaking and in a bad way.

I'll give PGI the benefit of the doubt, but a week after Dec 4 it's hello Planetside 2 depending on how broken MWO is.

It hasn't even come out yet, so I'm trying not to panic too much. All but two of the features of the ECM I'm basically fine with. The battlemap and HUD stuff (as well as the adjustments to locking speed) are effects that alter features of the game that were added by PGI in the transition to real time combat. I get that, and I'm ok with it.

If they took out 1) no lock on when inside enemy ECM, and took out 2) reduced targeting range to 200m, then I'd be fine.

The current plan for ECM is ridiculously gamebreaking for allowing a single piece of equipment to 1) completely nullify an entire category of weapons, and 2) be a significant break from its TT roots in the process.

[Captain Midnight]

I'd direct you to my previous post Kobold and ask you to tell me why ECM shouldn't beat LRMs and SSRMs so easily? It takes more skill to think your build through and put on ECM than it does to use LRM or SSRM mechs...

Why shouldn't ECM break LRM/SSRM? Tell me why you think those weapon systems deserve the strength they currently hold. Why shouldn't the counter be as easy to use as the weapon itself?

[Scratx]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

What's wrong with lock-on weapons that don't require any skill whatsoever being easily countered and overall poor choices for a weapons loadout? I don't see the problem. Direct fire weapons that require skill aren't effected by ECM. Only noobs who can't do anything but use LRMs or SSRMs are being punished by ECM.

You miss the fact that you can't target them at all. This may not look like it affects anyone other than missile boats but it's not true. If they don't even show up red triangles (I just realised it's not explicitly said that) they'll be very easy to miss when you're searching for targets.

That is broken because all the cover that already exists in maps make it far from impossible to sneak into someone's base undetected already. If you can't even be radar-spotted beyond 200 meters, it becomes trivial for any mech with a low profile... like a Jenner or a Commando.

[Captain Midnight]

Sounds like watching your approaches with heat vision is going to be something high skill players can do, and low skill players can't. I don't see the problem. Bad players will be spotted and shot, good players will do the spotting and shooting. There is nothing wrong with having a game where bad players do poorly, we don't need to give them LRM/SSRM/"Lock"/Radar crutches.

[Kobold]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

I'd direct you to my previous post Kobold and ask you to tell me why ECM shouldn't beat LRMs and SSRMs so easily? It takes more skill to think your build through and put on ECM than it does to use LRM or SSRM mechs...

Why shouldn't ECM break LRM/SSRM? Tell me why you think those weapon systems deserve the strength they currently hold. Why shouldn't the counter be as easy to use as the weapon itself?

Because ECM doesn't nullify entire weapons systems in TT, and isn't supposed to. It is only supposed to nullify the fancy add ons that improve the weapon systems, and return people to the status quo. Your 1.5 tons of ECM gear counters the other guy's few tons of NARC, Artemis, or C3 equipment.

If you believe that in their non-upgraded form that LRMs are somehow broken (and certainly I think streaks have a problem, in large part because they currently operate in a way that is contrary to TT, shock), then the solution is to FIX THE PROBLEM. Not introduce another game breaker on top of what you perceive to be something that is already broken.

If you believe LRMs are too good (too much bang for the buck, or too little risk for too much reward), then explain that position. Don't just try to handwave them away.

[Wolfways]

Churzy, on 27 November 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Considering the Raven was explicitly created to carry an ECM (because it was inviable on other existing Mech models)... well, let's say that not everyone should easily be able to carry one around and use it effectively.

While I'm not against any mech equipping ECM (or BAP for that matter), I think that they should at least be cheaper/baseline for Ravens, and more costly for the rest. Otherwise we'll be seeing even more Jenners, and SSRMs won't be able to help

Just want to point this out because i think many people are getting wrong info about the Raven. It was not designed to carry a Guardian ECM, but rather an "Electronic Warfare Device".

Electronic Warfare Equipment (EW Equipment) was a suite of basic electronic devices developed in 3025 by the Capellan Confederation and included on the first model of their Raven BattleMech. The device mimiced the combined capabilities of the then-lostech Beagle Active Probe and Guardian ECM Suite, but without the range of those Star League era devices. It was a landmark development for the Confederation in its time, but became obsolete with the redevelopment of the Star League systems it copied.
The Clans, having never lost the original equipment, had no need to develop this inferior substitute.

Game Rules

EW Equipment weighs 7.5 tons and takes up 4 critical spaces. It functions as an active probe and an ECM suite within a radius of three hexes. The combined mass and bulk of the system make it strictly inferior to mounting both a Beagle and Guardian system instead, but the latter systems are of a higher technology level.

[MeerKatV]

The Cicada 3M is going to be more popular. ECM to disrupt LRM/SSRM mechs & counter ECM mechs, TAG to reveal "hidden" ECM mechs & enough armor/ weaponry to make it a nasty hit-and-run assassin.

Hope they beef up the Raven 3L, between the Jenner & the Cicada - there doesn't seem to be much reason to have it as your ECM ride. No problem with the Atlas - it's going to be waaaaay popular.

Edited by MeerKatV, 28 November 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[Duvanor]

Most of you seem to ignore an essential fact. ECM can counter ECM and then all those poor LRM and SSRM Mechs will work as usual. Combine that with heatvision and it will be fine.

I think, Raven and Atlas will work as defenders with long range firepower while Commando and Jenner will disrupt ECMs in groups of enemies or lay ambushs.

[Purlana]

Making a weapon useless is not a good way to balance things.

What's next? Reflective armor that makes me 100% immune to lasers?

Edited by Purlana, 28 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Wow I hope I misread something, EMC sounds insanely overpowered.

EMC – problems.
Range 0m +++++++++++++ 180m — 200m ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Effects of EMC cloaking at 200m+ you are invisible to enemy radar (minimap). You cannot be targeted, iron-sights only.

This means you cannot be hit by LRMs, you will not show up on radar.

Artemis is ineffective against you. NOTE: this applies to SRM only since you are invisible to LRM and SSRM2.

You can be hit by direct fire weapons, if you are spotted visually or on thermal.

Effects of EMC Cloaking 0 to 180m you are invisible to enemy radar (minimap). You cannot be targeted, iron-sights only.

This means you cannot be hit by LRMs, you will not show up on radar.

Artemis is ineffective against you. NOTE: this applies to SRM only since you are invisible to LRM and SSRM2.

You can be hit by direct fire weapons, if you are spotted visually or on thermal.

But what happens if someone is in my dead zone, 20m (less than the height of an atlas). If someone finds your “deadzone”, keep in mind that even the slowest stock mech moves at 50kph, which is about 14m per second, so it will only take 1.5 seconds to move 20m, which is probably less time than it will take for an enemy to get a missile lock (remember missile locks take twice as long), and significantly less time than it takes for LRMs to travel, meaning they will miss anyway. NOTE: if you are using any EMC mech except the Atlas-D-DC, that time is less than 0.5s to exit the dead zone.

But what about direct fire? Well you are in luck, 4 of the mechs that are EMC capable move at 146.3 KPH or better (with speed tweak), while the AS7-D-DC is one of the best brawler builds and LRM builds available.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 28 November 2012 - 11:12 AM.