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Rename Double Heat Sinks


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#1 Jaded Jasper

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:27 PM

I think it's a great idea to tone down Double Heat Sinks, as they've long been perhaps the most broken part of battle tech.

But you should change the name then, since there is nothing "double" about them; "Improved HS"? "Large HS"? I don't know, but just make it something not actively misleading!

#2 Zanathan

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:04 PM

Agreed. Then we can get all the complainers to quite down a little because it's not 'double' the heat sinks.

#3 Lane

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

Since most lasers are getting a heat nerf, single heatsinks will now be worse, so doubles working at 1.4 might be required on said lasers. Light mechs will be ok but heaver mechs will be worse than they are now.

I vote leave lasers and shs's as they are, remove double heat sinks from the game.

Allow all mechs to equip gauss, we need an assault capable of equiping 3 or 4 for balance issues.

Lane

#4 Joe Mallad

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

I say rename DHS... advanced heat sinks, keep them at 1 ton and 1.4 heat but drop them to 2 crit slot usage instead of 3.

And once the Clans come in, their mech weapons run even hotter than inner sphere weapons so introduce DHS ten that do just what they are supposed to at 2.0 heat but make them also 1 ton and 2 crit slot usage but only able to be used in Clam mech.

So... Inner sphere mech use HS and AHS
And... Clan mech use DHS

#5 TheMightyServo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

There's a whole lot of fixing what wasn't broke going on here.

Going back to TT stats, the game isn't broke. DHS ARE a massive improvement. That's the point.

Rediscovered tech makes a difference. And some things just aren't going to be balanced, and balancing things meant to be unbalanced makes the whole game bland.

All other things being the same, a 3025 mech against an upgraded 3050 mech of the same type will generally lose - especially one with DHS. DHS do make a difference. Some tech does outclass other tech. IRL, weapons, especially vehicles, become obsolete, and are replaced, or relegated to specific roles they work in. No matter how cool the P51 Mustang is, the F86 pretty much made it obsolete, as the F4 did, as the F15 did, and as the F22 has.

Consider that this thread itself starts with the statement: "I think it's a great idea to tone down Double Heat Sinks, as they've long been perhaps the most broken part of battle tech." That's something with which decades worth of players and fans don't argee, as they've been part of BT since the late 80s/early90s when DHS were first introduced.

There's nothing "broken" about them, and making a fundamental change of a feature in the game that's 20 years old, while sticking to the idea of trying to be true to what worked for the TT and other computer games for decades just doesn't work.

Easy ways to fix the perceived imbalance is to increase repair costs (as C-bill costs have been adjusted to work with MWC costs), or just establish tiered battles, like the old BT level 1/2/3 system. Let players opt in to the battles they want. Want to play level 1 with 3025 gear, single heat sinks, basic weapons? Then stick to it. Want to play level 2 3040s era w/o Clans next year? Make it an option. Want to play Clan vs innersphere or a mix? Make it an option. Want to play level 3 in a couple years when there are RAC5s and MRM30s and Streak LRMs and heavy lasers and mech tasers and flails and such? Make it an option. If you run a level 2 mech with DHS and such, you can't compete in level 1 play. If you run a level 1 and want to bat out of your league, you get a C-bill multiplier for the match (say 1.1 or something). If you run a level 3 mech with a pair of heavy large lasers, coolant flush, glazed armor, DFMs and a sword, you play with other level 3 folks unless somebody from a lower level wants to come bat out of their league for a chance at more C-bills.

As to the idea that clan mechs should get real DHS and IS mechs should get nerfed pseudo-DHS, that means another handicap for IS, for zero reason other than that some folks just don't like DHS working as DHS. Denying clan mechs AMS (which they have better versions of) also doesn't work - some Omnis with lighter armor actually rely on those, but the discussion of LRMs and SRMs is a whole different thing.

I'll note that by the number of threads about light mechs in the forums here, there are plenty of problems with circle-strafe Jenners that just zap and zap away, and that ties in with where DHS would make them even more lethal, and how that's a concern - part of why folks are complaining about lasers. TT, a Jenner running circles around an Atlas would be getting blasted right quick, or punched, or kicked, then crippled and smashed. Staying in close involves more turning and loss of speed (especially over terrain), and means you aren't really moving as far or fast (another issue with MWO that needs fixing unrelated to DHS). With the collision issues and lagshield in the process of being fixed, that's a seperate issue and one that isn't solved by nerfing lasers, nerfing DHS, doubling LRM damage, making Streaks CT-coring win-buttons, or creating other problems as "fixes".

Short version:
- Make DHS real DHS, stick to the source material
- Don't fix what ain't broke
- Fix what is broke (lagshield, collision, other things that are being fixed), that will solve a lot of secondary complaints as well
- Not all tech is made equal
- Because of that, don't level the playing field, just make Level 1/2/3 playing fields

Edited by TheMightyServo, 04 November 2012 - 11:20 PM.


#6 Grimmenstein

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostTheMightyServo, on 04 November 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

There's a whole lot of fixing what wasn't broke going on here.

Going back to TT stats, the game isn't broke. DHS ARE a massive improvement. That's the point.

Rediscovered tech makes a difference. And some things just aren't going to be balanced, and balancing things meant to be unbalanced makes the whole game bland.

All other things being the same, a 3025 mech against an upgraded 3050 mech of the same type will generally lose - especially one with DHS. DHS do make a difference. Some tech does outclass other tech. IRL, weapons, especially vehicles, become obsolete, and are replaced, or relegated to specific roles they work in. No matter how cool the P51 Mustang is, the F86 pretty much made it obsolete, as the F4 did, as the F15 did, and as the F22 has.

Consider that this thread itself starts with the statement: "I think it's a great idea to tone down Double Heat Sinks, as they've long been perhaps the most broken part of battle tech." That's something with which decades worth of players and fans don't argee, as they've been part of BT since the late 80s/early90s when DHS were first introduced.

There's nothing "broken" about them, making a fundamental change of a feature in the game that's 20 years old, while sticking to the idea of trying to be true to what worked for the TT and other computer games for decades just doesn't work.

Easy ways to fix the perceived imbalance is to increase repair costs (as C-bill costs have been adjusted to work with MWC costs), or just establish tiered battles, like the old BT level 1/2/3 system. Let players opt in to the battles they want. Want to play level 1 with 3025 gear, single heat sinks, basic weapons? Then stick to it. Want to play level 2 3040s era w/o Clans next year? Make it an option. Want to play Clan vs innersphere or a mix? Make it an option. Want to play level 3 in a couple years when there are RAC5s and MRM30s and Streak LRMs and heavy lasers and mech tasers and flails and such? Make it an option. If you run a level 2 mech with DHS and such, you can't compete in level 1 play. If you run a level 1 and want to bat out of your league, you get a C-bill multiplier for the match (say 1.1 or something). If you run a level 3 mech with a pair of heavy large lasers, coolant flush, glazed armor, DFMs and a sword, you play with other level 3 folks unless somebody from a lower level wants to come bat out of their league for a chance at more C-bills.

As to the idea that clan mechs should get real DHS and IS mechs should get nerfed pseudo-DHS, that means another handicap for IS, for zero reason other than that some folks just don't like DHS working as DHS. Denying clan mechs AMS (which they have better versions of) also doesn't work - some Omnis with lighter armor actually rely on those, but the discussion of LRMs and SRMs is a whole different thing.

I'll note that by the number of threads about light mechs in the forums here, there are plenty of problems with circle-strafe Jenners that just zap and zap away, and that ties in with where DHS would make them even more lethal, and how that's a concern - part of why folks are complaining about lasers. TT, a Jenner running circles around an Atlas would be getting blasted right quick, or punched, or kicked, then crippled and smashed. Staying in close involves more turning and loss of speed (especially over terrain), and means you aren't really moving as far or fast (another issue with MWO that needs fixing unrelated to DHS). With the collision issues and lagshield in the process of being fixed, that's a seperate issue and one that isn't solved by nerfing lasers, nerfing DHS, doubling LRM damage, making Streaks CT-coring win-buttons, or creating other problems as "fixes".

Great on the rhetoric, but what are your suggestions. You gave quite the rant, complaining about other peoples suggestions. lets be a little more constructive shall we?

I posted in another thread for this same topic. I believe the the heat penalty scale needs to be implemented before too much more quasi-balancing is done. The heat scale should be base 30 + 3X heatsinks where all heatsinks only count as 1 each. Engine heatsinks should only account for the base 30. This allows mechs with single heatsinks to maintain a higher temperature with less penalties, but longer cooldowns. This also lets DHS work at .2 instead of nerfed to .14 allowing a mech to quickly dissipate heat, but forcing it to run cooler or else...... at most you will only be adding 4-6 dhs so lets assume 16 dhs for a total heatscale of 48. where as for the same heat dissipation in shs (32) you would need 22 heatsinks for a total heatscale of 96. with penalties coming in as early as 20 percent you can see how this keeps shs viable, or you can't if you are blind.

#7 TheMightyServo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

Quote

Great on the rhetoric, but what are your suggestions. You gave quite the rant, complaining about other peoples suggestions. lets be a little more constructive shall we?


Clever response, but shows your mind went tl;dr. :lol:


Quote

Easy ways to fix the perceived imbalance is to increase repair costs (as C-bill costs have been adjusted to work with MWC costs), or just establish tiered battles, like the old BT level 1/2/3 system. Let players opt in to the battles they want. Want to play level 1 with 3025 gear, single heat sinks, basic weapons? Then stick to it. Want to play level 2 3040s era w/o Clans next year? Make it an option. Want to play Clan vs innersphere or a mix? Make it an option. Want to play level 3 in a couple years when there are RAC5s and MRM30s and Streak LRMs and heavy lasers and mech tasers and flails and such? Make it an option. If you run a level 2 mech with DHS and such, you can't compete in level 1 play. If you run a level 1 and want to bat out of your league, you get a C-bill multiplier for the match (say 1.1 or something). If you run a level 3 mech with a pair of heavy large lasers, coolant flush, glazed armor, DFMs and a sword, you play with other level 3 folks unless somebody from a lower level wants to come bat out of their league for a chance at more C-bills.


DHS are, in general, superior. That's why they were developed. Not all tech is equal. Seperate the levels of play. Level 1 can opt into any, level 2 can opt into 2 or 3, level 3 can only play with level 3.

Also, DHS, isn't always the be-all-end-all piece of gear. For mechs that already run at low heat, switching to DHS can eat up critical spaces they'd rather use for endo and ferro, especially mechs that run ACs or gauss. ACs have their own issues right now, but that's a seperate problem.

1. Levels of play
2. Fix game physics

1. See quote above.

2. The problems with DHS are basically that it makes heat-dependent weapons more dangerous yet. They're only dangerous because mechs that use them are insanely fast and unaffected by terrain and collisions. Collisions are in the works. If terrain is, I haven't seen it. A Jenner trying to run up a 45 degree incline and losing half his speed is suddenly a lot easier to hit, and the pilot isn't going to circle-strafe up and down hills around you while taking shots, because he'll be hit in the meantime - and hit a lot.

See what changes when that's done, before taking out elements of the game that have been around for 20 years and numerous other iterations.

Again, the short version:

Quote

Short version:
- Make DHS real DHS, stick to the source material
- Don't fix what ain't broke
- Fix what is broke (lagshield, collision, other things that are being fixed), that will solve a lot of secondary complaints as well
- Not all tech is made equal
- Because of that, don't level the playing field, just make Level 1/2/3 playing fields

Edited by TheMightyServo, 05 November 2012 - 01:09 AM.


#8 AC Rimak

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:10 AM

IMO.
DHS - Double heatsinks

BHS - Better heatsinks

#9 MaddMaxx

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:45 AM

HHS - Heavy Heat Sinks :(

#10 DocBach

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:55 AM

rename them to ****

#11 sakkaku

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:03 AM

View PostLane, on 04 November 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Since most lasers are getting a heat nerf, single heatsinks will now be worse, so doubles working at 1.4 might be required on said lasers. Light mechs will be ok but heaver mechs will be worse than they are now.

I vote leave lasers and shs's as they are, remove double heat sinks from the game.

Allow all mechs to equip gauss, we need an assault capable of equiping 3 or 4 for balance issues.

Lane


Hey guys.
Hey guys the game.
Hey guys the game is broke; lets make it even more broken.

#12 John Norad

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostJaded Jasper, on 04 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I think it's a great idea to tone down Double Heat Sinks, as they've long been perhaps the most broken part of battle tech.

They are only broken, if the matchmaking doesn't take them into account.





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