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Ferro Armor: The Myth, The Legend, The Unfortunate Mathematics


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#41 Discordantone

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:57 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 07 November 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:


Not true, but it is very build specific, and Endo is going to be the better choice 99% of the time. An example of Ferro being useful is when you are at max tonnage for class, and still have internals, but your armor is not maxed out. Now you can "buff" your armor. It IS more expensive to fix, but sometimes that extra few points is the difference between failure and victory.

Also in many 50 ton or lighter chassis, it is feasible to use BOTH, as most can't come close to filling all their crit slots (The exception being the popular CheezeBack laser variants, that need all the DHS or HS loving they can get. Darn, no free lunch for an annoying build.)

I Run a CN9-D with Endo, Ferro, DHS AND and XL engine. Mostly for the lulz, but it still has space to pack a Gauss Rifle w/3 tons of ammo and 2 medium pulse lasers (ala 3050 Yen-Lo-Wang). Fast and tough, has taken it's fair share of Atlases. On the downside, the critter ain't cheap, nor cheap to refit between matches, but I am still making money, not losing, so I ain't complaining.

Might drop the Ferro and the Gauss for a pair of Artemis equipped 6 packs tho... and a bigger engine! XD



Well okay, admittedly yes, for the smaller mechs who do indeed have the extra crit spaces, the upgrade is not a bad one, if you can afford the repair bill (most of us that are parts of premades will discover what we are truly made of once they fix the matchmaking system, and find out if we really can afford the upgrades, as opposed to what we've been doing for months and steamrolling other teams for target practice... yes, it is boring as hell, despite the common thought that we actually -enjoy- fighting PUG teams, because honestly we don't, at least not us in the Jade Falcon 5th Battle Cluster, we'd prefer real matches against real teams... no offense to the PUGs.) So I do concede the fact, as I have previously, that Ferro is not a bad choice if you can afford the repairs, and have the spare crit slots, but that is generally limited to your lighter mechs.

#42 Grayzzur

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:51 AM

If you have a build, usually light mechs possibly medium, that absolutely could benefit from the extra half or one ton and doesn't need the crit space, running Endo and Ferro together might be useful. Probably more beneficial on Omnimechs where you're less limited on what you can mount in your hardpoints, but we don't have those yet. Right now, yes, take the Endo and dump the Ferro, 99.44% of the time. Big mechs like the Atlas often need those 14 critical spaces more than they need the tons that Endo provides.

#43 Naros

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:19 PM

View PostDiscordantone, on 05 November 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:


Let me rebold, and make this bigger:

You do not get 12% more armor, it weighs 12% less than standard armor, that is it.

This means that you get anywhere from 0.78 more tons, to 2.4 tons, dependent on mech, from lightest to heaviest

In reference to your "You're a USian" next time I see a statement from you like that, I'll report you for Nationalistic Racist remarks.



Exactly, thus my statement, best for light mechs almost specifically.


You may want to tone down your arrogance, since you repeatedly failed to notice that I was suggesting a possible change to the mechanic.
I was very clear about this. :V

#44 Elder Thorn

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostBrightCandle, on 05 November 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

Its completely worthless, Endo steel is always better. Worse than that you can't realistically run Endo + FF at the same time so it turns out it has no value whatsoever at the moment.


one of my most successfull builds runs Endo, FF and DHS... :rolleyes:

I agree though, that Endo is much more worth it, FF is only the absolutly last option

Edited by Elder Thorn, 07 November 2012 - 06:27 PM.


#45 The Crow2k

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

Yeah I really regret putting Ferro on my atlas, shoulda gone Endo. Live & learn I guess.

Worst thing is switching back doesn't keep the alternate armor in inventory, which it should IMHO.

#46 Discordantone

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

View PostNaros, on 07 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:


You may want to tone down your arrogance, since you repeatedly failed to notice that I was suggesting a possible change to the mechanic.
I was very clear about this. :V


I wasn't referring to your suggestion, I was referring to your unneeded and fairly pungent comment about my location for my icon. The rest of that was for the others who were arguing for them getting 12% more armor.

Edited by Discordantone, 07 November 2012 - 06:39 PM.


#47 Naros

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:01 AM

View PostDiscordantone, on 07 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:


I wasn't referring to your suggestion, I was referring to your unneeded and fairly pungent comment about my location for my icon. The rest of that was for the others who were arguing for them getting 12% more armor.


Well, I'm very very sorry for hurting your feelings! :V

#48 Discordantone

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:23 AM

View PostNaros, on 08 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:


Well, I'm very very sorry for hurting your feelings! :V


Thank you ;) And accepted... I do get a bit tetchy, as I wasn't born here, and it does irritate me to be stereotyped merely due to a location (especially since most nationalistic stereotypes are based upon a nation's governmental policies, not the people therein), and I do not do the same to others... Moving on from this however:

I edited the post, to actually display the difference concerning Endosteel in more detail.

#49 Sovery_Simple

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:33 AM

View Postdal10, on 05 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:


I run triple streak 2 commando 200 xl and 10 heat sinks. 2 tons ammo however, so I run out easily...

note I use both endo and ferro

Do you have an AMS or something? Mine runs 210 XL and 3 tons of ammo. No AMS though, but has an Slas.

Edit: Also, running FF on most of my mechs, as I value having an extra ton or so for an additional HS / ton of ammo / actually having an AMS. The cost isn't that bad I find, as long as you aren't using a heavy+. (Cicada primary here, with jenner / commando's)

Edited by Whoops, 08 November 2012 - 07:36 AM.


#50 Discordantone

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

View PostWhoops, on 08 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Do you have an AMS or something? Mine runs 210 XL and 3 tons of ammo. No AMS though, but has an Slas.

Edit: Also, running FF on most of my mechs, as I value having an extra ton or so for an additional HS / ton of ammo / actually having an AMS. The cost isn't that bad I find, as long as you aren't using a heavy+. (Cicada primary here, with jenner / commando's)


You have to remember, Whoops, that you and I have the distinction of having Premium bonuses, which basically pay for our repair bill, win or lose. Not only that, again however, that is for Light Mechs, wherein we've all pretty much agreed that the extra crit-slots aren't really missed as much as in mediums and higher (I still group the Cicada in with Light Mechs).

Edited by Discordantone, 08 November 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#51 p00k

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:09 PM

i'm fine with FF being the least useful of the upgrades. one of them has to be the worst, i'm ok with it being the most costly to repair (since presumably you won't be taking as much internal damage to rack up endosteel repairs). when it comes to trading tonnage for crits, XL engines > DHS (once you factor in engine freebies) > endosteel > ferrofibrous as far as the ratio of tonnage per crit. xl engines make you more vulnerable, dhs require 3-crit chunks, so you can take ES, and only if you still have an excess of crits do you take FF

#52 Melcyna

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

Overall though since, you always suffer damage to armor first (at least until a proper armor penetration mechanics enter the game fully) FF is basically a very poor choice of upgrade.

if we just imagine every hit you take as a Cbills flying off your mech, FF doubles the Cbills flying off each time they burn off your armor...

sure, you get a tiny bit extra tonnage... that you might use to max out the armor... which then get shaved off costing double Cbills to replace...

so yeah... a rather poor choice of upgrade either way...

#53 Mousepup

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:13 AM

I think the in-game interface most players will be relying on should be more clear. If that doesn't happen, maybe trying different wording is a better bet than repeating in bold font since the problem seems to be that the wording is too easily misinterpreted. (and if the problem is rather that it's not being seen in the first place, this thread may be in vain.) "Ferro-Fibrous armor costs more than standard, but weighs less, so that similar coverage can be attained for slightly less tonnage. It does not increase the maximum amount of protection that a 'mech can carry, only decreases the tonnage cost of that protection. For ease of comparison, one point of either type offers the same protective value."

It would also be nice to communicate to newbies right there in the 'mech lab that Endo-Steel always gives more weight savings, even for maxed-out armor, AND increases the cost of structure repair rather than armor repair, AND is cheaper than maxed-out FF, so is almost always preferred as the first option while FF is only for odd cases of squeezing the last possible bit of tonnage out after already upgrading to ES. In-universe, ES is a much harder refit than FF and availability is poorer despite lower base cost, but those don't seem to be relevant at all in MW:O...

#54 Khobai

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:06 AM

Quote

'm fine with FF being the least useful of the upgrades. one of them has to be the worst


not true. one doesnt have to be worse. In fact theres little point in having both if one is worse than the other.

#55 Sayyid

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:34 AM

I love the misconception that you cant run Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous, you can!!!

ES and FF each take up 14 crits, not structure. There are 47 Critical spots on a battlemech record sheet, not removing hands, lower, or upper arm actuators.

The best advice I can give is this.

Ferro-Fiberous armor benifits light mechs and light mediums.

Endo Steel helps Mediums and heavies, and light assaults.

#56 DivineEvil

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:43 AM

Yes, FF is not cost efficient a tiny bit. The very idea of it's current design is weird. It would make perfect sence if it would just increase maximum points per chassis area, 1 additional point for each 8 points already present. In it's current version, it's a CB hog. Not running it on any of my mechs.

#57 Sayyid

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

View PostThontor, on 13 November 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

You can definitely get both... But Endo Steel helps more than Ferro Fibrous no matter what mech.. Light to assault.



Not really.

Light mechs, like the Flea, which weighs a wopping 20tons will not gain much from ES. 1 ton to be exact.

But if it is running 4 tons of armor it will save almost a half ton in armor to maintain the same rating. Which is a BIG deal on a 20 ton light. Thats adding 20% more armor to the mech over its stock amount. Really its only 12% more but thats a HUGE amount on a mech that only has 4 tons of armor and maxes out at 6.

#58 Discordantone

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostSayyid, on 13 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

I love the misconception that you cant run Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous, you can!!!

ES and FF each take up 14 crits, not structure. There are 47 Critical spots on a battlemech record sheet, not removing hands, lower, or upper arm actuators.

The best advice I can give is this.

Ferro-Fiberous armor benifits light mechs and light mediums.

Endo Steel helps Mediums and heavies, and light assaults.


I don't think anyone here said that you can't get both, I do believe that the general consensus is that FF Armor is almost patently useless, unless you merely want to sink cash into it, save for on extremely small mechs that only need 4-5 crit slots for weaponry. Even a Raven can mount larger Weapons, as can the Cicada, and if you rig it right, a Jenner doesn't even have the slots to carry both Endosteel and FF, merely lacking the critspaces to remain effective.

So, while yes you can get both, there really is no reason to, unless you -really- need those 9-11 extra armor points that you can get for swapping to FF on a light mech.

Also: I've not played in a couple days, I've been sick... they released the Flea? Since when? If not your Flea reference is absurd.

Edited by Discordantone, 15 November 2012 - 03:53 AM.


#59 Kyrs

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostSayyid, on 13 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

I love the misconception that you cant run Endo Steel and Ferro Fiberous, you can!!!

ES and FF each take up 14 crits, not structure. There are 47 Critical spots on a battlemech record sheet, not removing hands, lower, or upper arm actuators.

The best advice I can give is this.

Ferro-Fiberous armor benifits light mechs and light mediums.

Endo Steel helps Mediums and heavies, and light assaults.


Totally agree with you on this one. If the need for bigger engine is there, it can help increase your speed. But if C-bill your mains concern the FF and XL won't be your high priority.

You'll see some FF&ENDO on some fast heavy Zombie build that use standard engin, from some ppl speed with resilience is more important that C-bill. One must choose 6.5kps with atleast 6.5 k repair per game OR More C-bill in bank.

FF concept work fine the way it is. Increasing it benefit will just unbalance everything.

#60 Melcyna

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

Rather than increasing the benefit... it's more the harsh penalty (ie: cost to repair and replace the armor) that hampers FF... ie: a better idea is really to relax the penalty of FF rather than increasing the effectiveness of FF in combat terms.

note: that reducing it's penalty is technically increasing the benefit of FF, HOWEVER it does not alter FF combat performance at all, ie: the benefit it gives to FF is OUTSIDE the combat.

on a fast mech? they usually don't have much of an armor to speak off so their benefit AND penalty are quite limited...

on a slow mech? which presumably are heavily armored, they have the most benefit AND penalty... because as the slowest and most heavily armored mech they also tend to be the one that get shot a lot.

regardless of what mech we use, we can't really avoid getting the armor shot to hell except by not engaging ... with FF armor costing as it is, it's VERY difficult to justify taking such a hit to operational maintenance cost.

The crit space penalty is extensive enough as it is... slap the enormous massive price tag jump on it and you really have to ask yourself, 'is this REALLY actually worth the Cbills you are going to end up spending to maintain it?'

Seriously, FF armor is basically equivalent to painting your mech with GOLD PAINT... each shot, each SCRATCH your mech gets causes Cbills to disappear from your wallet while you use it.





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