218 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

No...just no. A mech with two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will NEVER overheat. Have it run hip-deep in boiling water and shoot it with Inferno missiles, and it will NEVER overheat. PERIOD.

[potatoparrot]

Diablobo, on 07 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

No...just no. A mech with two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will NEVER overheat. Have it run hip-deep in boiling water and shoot it with Inferno missiles, and it will NEVER overheat. PERIOD.

I tried :(

I suppose adapting isn't your strong suite. Nor is backing up anything you say whatsoever with any rationale other than "I am right, I can't be wrong". I tried to reason with you. I ignored your past stubborn posts with other forum members, thinking you may consider an additional individual's opinion. Instead, you reject it outright simply because you don't like it.
You ignore a massive portion of the post, continue to cling to your ideals and refuse to consider the thoughts and views of other people. Go ahead and counter, saying I do not consider your viewpoint. I did. I have. I compared the two heat systems, I directly translated combat between the two and found that they simply were incompatible.

You refuse to acknowledge this. You refuse to believe this. You are convinced, but unfortunately mistaken. I implore you to reconsider, to approach from another angle, to look at the heat system in another light. Reread my previous posts - I encourage it.

But I'm afraid I cannot continue this discussion without new input from you. If I post a reasoned argument discussing the differences between TableTop and MechWarrior: Online heat mechanics, and you retort with "That's not right! It shouldn't be like that!" then how can I possibly respond? There is nothing to respond to! It is a non-argument!

I'm sorry, but I approached this in an attempt to reason with you, but if you continue to refuse to be reasoned with then you I will simply stop trying and leave you to continue being frustrated.

[Malcolm Decker]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Do you mean to tell me that an engine that is bottling a millions of degree temperature fusion reaction is going to melt?
NOPE, not going to happen.

Yes, I am going to tell you exactly that. The hot plasma in a fusion engine is contained by magnetic fields, it never comes in direct contact with the sides of the reactor (barring damage or malfunction). There aren't really any materials that could directly withstand the temperatures needed for fusion, hence the magnetic containment trick. So really most of the parts of the engine aren't built for high temperatures at all and there is no reason internal waste heat wouldn't cause all manner of damage.

This is all beside the point since in battletech lore the real danger of overriding was the pilot being cooked in the cockpit. At some point the cabin air becomes so hot it burns the inside of your lungs, and needless to say, you're going to have a bad day. Maybe mechs shouldn't "blow up" but overheating should have lethal consequences.

[Kobold]

Heat can cause pilot death in TT.

Since we have no pilot damage mechanic, heat just kills the mech.

[Diablobo]

Jings, I appreciate your well thought out and well spoken comments in this matter, but I respectfully disagree. The main problem is the increased weapon heat generation because of the faster firing rates. Since this is a realtime combat game, obviously firing rates have to be higher, but this does not mean that heat dissipation can't match it.

If a mech with only ten heatsinks were to fire 2 PPCs and run at the same time, it is supposed to generate 12 extra heat. If it had 22 heatsinks, it would not generate any extra heat whatsoever. The 22 heatsink mech would be able to fire continuously and constantly with no negative effect at all. This is not possible in MWO. However unlike a tabletop game MWO is, it still violates the crucial and fundamental principle in Battletech of being able to carry enough heatsinks to fire weapons and operate the mech without overheating.

Since customizing and modifying the mechs is one of the best parts of any Battletech game, the fact that it is not possible to build heat efficient designs in this game is almost a dealbreaker. Sure, if someone wants to put more weapons on a mech than its heatsinks can handle, that's fine, but they will have to pay the penalty for it. Since most stock mechs carry more weapons than the heatsinks can handle, plenty of heat issues will still be present. And of course, many are still going to not carry enough heatsinks. As it is now, EVERYONE is penalized, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to make any heat efficient designs except for just a few. Why should those who run heat efficient designs be penalized? It just makes no sense, and it detracts from the fun and pretty much throws the very well balanced and well designed Battletech game system out the window.

[Diablobo]

DIRECTLY from the TechManual page 36:


Fusion engine explosions: an urban legend that won’t die. Let’s see if I can kill it on this planet, at least. Where to start? All right. First of all, when I said earlier that the magnetic fields of a fusion engine keep the plasma from melting the engine, I was already anticipating this question. In fact, the issue is actually kind of the opposite and counter-intuitive, so I didn’t bring it up. The magnetic fields do provide some protection to the reactor walls from the plasma, but primarily they protect the plasma from the cold, cold walls of the reactor chamber.The fusion reactions in a BattleMech’s fusion engine occur only under very narrow conditions of temperature and pressure. Generally, the hotter and higher the pressure, the faster the reactions, and below a certain minimum, fusion simply ceases. If you remember your ideal gas laws from chemistry…eh…the condensed version is that when you heat up a gas, it wants to expand. If it can’t expand, its pressure increases. When a gas expands, its temperature drops. Remember those rules of thumb and if you have trouble remembering them, hit the ‘net when this lecture is over. When a BattleMech’s fusion reactions spike a bit, the plasma gets hotter. More fusion reactions mean more heat means hotter plasma. But the magnetic confinement fields are not rigid. In fact, an ancient fusion engineering description that dates to the twentieth century says that, “Trying to hold onto plasma with magnetic fields is like trying to contain a roll of jelly with rubber bands.” When the plasma gets hotter, it pushes against the magnetic fields because its pressure is rising, and the magnetic fields give a bit. The expansion cools the plasma, and the reactions drop. There’s some elbow room in the reactor chamber for just this purpose.Now, I said the fusion reactions drop when they get cooler. There are ways for the plasma to cool other than expansion. One way is when the plasma touches the relatively frigid walls of the reaction chamber. If they do, the plasma will chill so rapidly that fusion ceases instantly. That only leaves you with a puff of hot gas, with no continuing source to damage the reactor walls. When confinement fails so badly that the plasma hits the walls, the walls are usually only scuffed. Surprising, isn’t it? But remember, all the heat energy comes from the fusion reactions. It’s not stored as latent heat in the plasma. In fact, there’s so little plasma mass to store heat that the “dead” plasma is barely able to warm up a multi-ton reactor—even if the cooling system completely fails. You might scorch your hand if you touched the outer casing, but it’s not enough to melt the shielding or damage critical components. And, no, you can’t just keep powering the fusion reaction while it gnaws through the reactor walls. Evaporating the lining of the reactor will mix kilograms of cold, heavy, non-fusible elements into the plasma, which is much lighter. The effect would be like dumping a ton of wet sand on a welding torch. So, the short version of all that is that when a fusion reactor gets out of hand, it usually shuts itself down and is unable to do more than warm up the reactor a bit.
And you protest, “But I saw a ’Mech explode on the news in a blinding flash of light! It had to be a nuke!” Or is it, “Well, what about that MechWarrior that buried a bunch of Clanners in a canyon with his exploding reactor?” Or would you ask, “Well, what about Tharkad City?” Okay…Fusion reactors do occasionally die in spectacular manners. But most of the time, the fireworks are not actually from an exploding reactor. What typically happens is that some heavy weapon manages to puncture the reactor itself. Since the reactor interior is a vacuum, air would get sucked in and mix with the plasma, stopping the fusion reaction. Kilograms of cold air mixing with a tiny mass of plasma…well, that’s the wet-sand-and-torch analogy again. And, no, there’s not enough hydrogen in the reactor to really explode with the oxygen.

Edited by Diablobo, 07 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[RAM]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Sorry RAM, and sorry to all you physics and lore advocates of engine explosions. Page 36 of the Techmanual EXPLICITLY states that engine explosions DO NOT happen.
The opening statement of the section:

Fusion engine explosions: an urban legend that won’t die. Let’s
see if I can kill it on this planet, at least. Where to start?

CHECK and MATE.

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Also, the engine explosion rules only apply to catastrophic damage. Four or more critical hits that occur instantly. That is not possible with overheating, expanded heat rules or not.

IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, AND IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN MWO!!

As you yourself point out, yes there are optional rules for engine explosions for those that wish to use them – indeed there are two versions of them. However, yes under standard rules it cannot happen because as has been pointed out, Fusion reactors do not go critical.

Whether MWO should have Engine Explosions or not is a different discussion; however in reference to the OP yes extreme heat CAN kill (disable) one’s mech.


RAM
ELH

[Diablobo]

Extreme heat does not kill a mech. Yes, there is the occasional instance when the one point of internal damage is rolled for the cockpit, but other than that, MECHS CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND SHOULD NOT EXPLODE FROM OVERHEATING.

Give it up...quit clinging to the PGI Battletech-for-incompetent-game-developers system....we don't have to suffer like this.

[KageRyuu]

You won't be satisfied so why bother? If you don't like the game don't play it, no one will miss you when you're gone.

Regardless, I think it'd be cooler if they included a heat death animation where the pilot is more or less cooked alive, that'd be cool lol or hot really.

[Robert blackseven Sohn]

To OP, let's grant for a moment that, yes, mech should not explode without ammo. Even if that's true, sufficient heat kills the pilot and your mech is effectively dead.

So basically, you are complaining about the visual effect of the explosion, am I correct?

Leaving aside the "there's too much heat generated" argument, your ORIGINAL point was that overheating mechs should not explode, right?

Fine, but overheating should still mission kill the mech.

It's the same reason I explode when I stay too long out of bounds. It's just a visual effect - it's not like wandering outside an arbitrary geographical bound should blow up your mech.

[Korbyn McColl]

In the TT rules you can die from overheating your mech, remember? So while the mech may not explode in the game rules, the pilot ends up cooked in the cockpit.

[Havyek]

Why should 'Mechs explode when they run out of bounds, overheat, or are destroyed?

BECAUSE IT LOOKS COOL!

TT or canon be damned. Exploding robots are cool. The explosions should also cause a good deal of splash damage, maybe this would also put a stop to the SRM heavy face humpers.

[Congzilla]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Where is this found in any Battletech game book? Show me the mechanic or rule that makes this happen and how it is applied during gameplay.

It is found in Maximum Tech and Tactical Operations.

Diablobo, on 08 November 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

Extreme heat does not kill a mech. Yes, there is the occasional instance when the one point of internal damage is rolled for the cockpit, but other than that, MECHS CANNOT, WILL NOT, AND SHOULD NOT EXPLODE FROM OVERHEATING.

Give it up...quit clinging to the PGI Battletech-for-incompetent-game-developers system....we don't have to suffer like this.

Please learn the Battletech rules before spouting off.

[EvilCow]

In MW2 you could explode even after engine shutdown because ammo explosion, something I would like to see in MWO too with probability proportional to loaded ammo. That would tame a bit the SRM boats.

Gauss ammo would be exempt of course.

[Taizan]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

That never happens in the Battletech game.

In this other game we play it apparently does. Maybe because it isn't that other Battletech game you are talking about?

[Robert blackseven Sohn]

Thontor, on 15 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Nice necro of a thread that hasn't been active in over two months.

Crap, good catch.

[BritishJesus]

Simply put (I'm too lazy to read through 3 pages of stuff to see if this has already been stated), you're walking around in a giant robot powered by a nuclear fusion reactor (unless by some weird BT thing, fusion means something totally different). Granted that a fusion reactor is a tad safer than a fission one, you're still going to probably have a meltdown if you override the heat safeties. If you die because you override your safeties, just remember something similar happened at Chernobyl (yes, I am aware of the two different types of reactor here.)

[kilgor]

If you're going to debate about heat, it would be better to look at the heat rules in the Solaris VII: The Game World (1660) set. Those rules would more closely reflect a live game than the standard Battletech rules since each turn in the Solaris VII rules is 2.5 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds in the standard Battletech rules.

[Henchman 24]

If it's not the ammo, and you're an energy boat...shutdown is there to prevent catastrophic damage to critical systems.

If you spam O during a shutdown, you run the risk of:

engine meltdown
ammo explosions due to heat
capacitor explosions due to heat(lasers, ppc, gauss)

I've never seen an all flamer mech ever explode, so I can't comment on those builds.

There are reasons, but most are different from TT due to the override feature, and it's there because it's actually you in the cockpit in a match, and not you sitting over 4 mechs on a TT grid.

ProTip: Don't spam O more than twice, or learn how to run a hot mech, or learn how to build cool ones.

[Mister Blastman]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Currently, when running a mech that has no ammo and only energy weapons, it is possible to blow up the mech by overheating.
There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this. The only possible way for a mech to explode from overheating is by setting off the ammo. If there is no ammo, the mech simply shuts down until the heat dissipates.
As it stands now, a mech will blow up just as surely with no ammo as it would if it had 10 tons of ammo. This is not proper, and the devs need to address why they have chosen to have mechs explode rather than simply shut down when they overheat and don't any have ammo to cook.
Do the developers seriously mean to say that sophisticated and highly engineered machines are allowed to explode right under the pilots?
They are going to shut down before they explode, and no amount of rationalization of the heat mechanic would explain why we are all running around sitting on bombs that are going to explode if pushed too hard.
The engines are supposed to shut down, not explode.

If you really must know...

(Nerd alert--I am one!)

If you allow the fusion reactor core to get hot enough--more importantly, the /outside/ of the fusion core--or more appropriately the containment apparatus for the plasma within... You run the danger of reaching either:
a. The curie point of any ferromagnetics used in the structure
or
b. Increased resistance in the coil due to subatomic interference though super-action of the particles, thus steadily reducing the conductivity of the wire the higher the temperature gets.

Both of these would lead to a weakening of the containment field ultimately leading to a field breach from the plasma within--which, in turn, would rupture the mech, destroying the system--and permanently disabling the Mech causing it to power down indefintely--or turn into hot slag depending on the plasma to mass ratio of the mech.

SO, no, they wouldn't exactly explode unless the plasma caused the ammo to explode--or capacitors on gauss rifles to spontaneously discharge in an uncoordinated manner. The mech would just become inoperable at best, slag at worst.

So yes, overheating is BAD for fusion coils! (or almost any kind of fusion containment system).