150 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Regardless,why is it so offensive to you guys that some people might want to have a solo q to drop in,instead of just get roflstomped by 8 man premades game after game?

I mean really,what's the problem with that?

Why do you insist that every one has to play the game your way?

I've never insisted you play any way. I'm just tired of people scapegoating premades period. I want you to pay attention to the forums because I gurantee you MOST (not all) of the players complaining about getting rolled by premades will do one of two things after tomorrow
1.)Continue blaming premades because obviously the DEVs are lying about the MM and how it's working and the hard numbers because there's NO WAY they could have goten stomped that bad by anything other than a premade

2.) They'll find a new scapegoat to blame getting rolled on.

[hanitora]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Strategies and Tactics in use by Premade Teams...

• 5-8 Mechs with LRMs of some sort, 1-2 Scouts Targets... Targets are all concentrated on 1 at a time and killed in a matter of Seconds
  
• 2 groups of 4, East and West... then moving in together to catch the enemy in a crossfire
  
• Zerg Rush... Entire Team moves straight to the Enemy Base in a group, sometimes in 1s or 2s to support each other if they encounter any Resistance
  
• Very little use of Trial Mechs, pretty much all Custom Builds, these builds take advantage of very High DPS for each of their Play Style
  
• Entire Team moves as one, Destroying anything in their Path...
  
• Defend, 6-7 Mechs camp their own base, 1-2 Scouts run out... these scouts drag back anything chasing them and then the Team all concentrate fire on one target at a time, once the Enemy Team is down to about 4 or below Mechs the Defending Team will move out as one and finish anything else off
  
• Team will always have 1-2 Mediums supporting each Assault Mech, with LRM Cover concentrating on the Assault Mechs Targets
  
• You can always tell when the enemy team are using Voice Comms, you can see units being diverted to another area to Support someone else, even if that unit is currently engaged in combat or taking fire, he/she will disengage and move off to support the unit in need of help

All of these are often used by pugs.and not even always necessarily intentional, while the one about trial mechs is not necessarily true about premades at all. Premades often have trial mechs in them. The rush to base one is actually a pretty good tactic to use as a pug and I believe it's gaining popularity. It's very simplistic and easy to execute without comms. You just run to a known point on map as a blob, anyone can understand.

[Taryys]

...obviously longer that you would like.

QuantumButler, on 05 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

The problem has been "known" literally FOR MONTHS, EVER SINCE GROUPING WAS ADDED IN CLOSED BETA HOW FREAKING LONG DOES IT TAKE TO MATCH GROUPS ONLY AGAINST GROUPS?

Edited by Taryys, 05 November 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Desecrator]

Problems have been known forever.

They were told not to release (open beta (sic)), until this stuff was fixed.

But they got money hungry and released the game with ****** matchmaking.
Reap what you sow

[Zultor]

The game needs to handle matchmaking and not the player base. Premade groups are going to continue and I predict get worse while people are trying to grind xp and credits. It is PGI's responsibility to balance the game and they have failed to do so in regards to premades vs. pugs. Heck we all know that groups were shoe-horned into the game for the Nvidia event way back when and we are still paying for it now.

I can't blame friends from wanting to play with each other and since they have no other way to play but use the current matchmaker I can't blame them for creaming pugs. PGI needs to make the matchmaker, and "player experience" as a whole, a much larger focus. Every dev, tester, or <insert job titles here> who can help should be on this issue at the expense of anything else. I know not everyone in the company can work on matchmaking but everyone who makes sense to have on it should be on it.

[QuantumButler]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Problems have been known forever.

They were told not to release (open beta (sic)), until this stuff was fixed.

But they got money hungry and released the game with ****** matchmaking.
Reap what you sow

Exactly my point, it's still broken, and only PGI is to blame

[Desecrator]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I've never insisted you play any way. I'm just tired of people scapegoating premades period. I want you to pay attention to the forums because I gurantee you MOST (not all) of the players complaining about getting rolled by premades will do one of two things after tomorrow
1.)Continue blaming premades because obviously the DEVs are lying about the MM and how it's working and the hard numbers because there's NO WAY they could have goten stomped that bad by anything other than a premade

2.) They'll find a new scapegoat to blame getting rolled on.

Premade groups are just mad because they might start losing a match or two. God forbid an even playing feild is to be had

Premade groups do not want to lose their advantage. A premade right now very very rarely faces other teams and are winning 90% of their matches if not more.

We know the agenda, we are just sick of it

[Taryys]

It has nothing to do with hungry.
It has to do with the reality of releasing a game and not having millions and millions of dollars and a major corporation underwriting the game. They have a small team and a small budget, and the choice to go open was not PGI's, it is IGP's. The best that they could do is get a minimum viable product and then go. They held it for as long as they could.

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Problems have been known forever.

They were told not to release (open beta (sic)), until this stuff was fixed.

But they got money hungry and released the game with ****** matchmaking.
Reap what you sow

Edited by Taryys, 05 November 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Wildcat]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

lol, you're gonna have a baaaad time in this game in general.

If you don't get your team to pull together and use tactics, you're gonna have the same win/loss no matter what happens to premades. And when I drop with PUGs, take command, and get them to use tactics... hm, it sure looks a lot like premade tactics from the other side.


Maybe you should pick up some friends and play with them as a group? Would be better than trolling the forums saying things like, "I dont care what Paul says, I know a Premade Team when I see one"... just kinda makes you sound a little daft.

I have played enough Games to know what to look for and see the Signs of Premade Teams.... you will very rarely get every PUG Team and Teammate to Coordinate and Concentrate on Tactics that will be as Efficient as the Tactics and Strategies with most Premade Teams

I have been in a few PUG Teams that have used Great Tactics and Communication to Win... and you can still tell the Difference between a PUG Team and Premade Team...

SIN Scythe, on 05 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

stop all your pug sorrows and join a team!

I have no reason to and Why Should I ???

I want a Fair Matchmaker system and the Premade Teams should have NEVER been mixed up with PUGs in the First Place.... if you want to chase players away from a Game then you will mix Premade Teams in with PUG Teams....

Jade Kitsune, on 05 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

You're not getting the point.

PGI is making these huge, sweeping changes to appease the Lone wolf crowd, in a game that is supposed to be focused around teamwork.

They're breaking up teams [if only for a short time] in a way that is not conducive to the overall experience, because those of you who want to "Launch solo all day ere day" complained that you weren't special snowflake enough.

Well now guess what's going to happen, those premades you complained about, will be broken up a bit and spread out more, which means now you have MORE of a chance to run into 4 man premade groups... 4 guys on comms working together will still be too tough for you guys who were complaining.

Mark my words.

This game should work like Chromehounds... you HAVE to join a team to play. Or make your own.

You will find that even with 4 Preamdes for EACH Side (Which is the Plan for the First Stage) this will even out and will be Very Fair for the Match Making system

Sure, a Group of 4 can still be very Devastating... Thats why I wanted Teams of 2s-3s... But even up against a group of 4 can be over come with current PUG groups

dont think it will not be a Challenge, most matches will be, but there is a lot of Skill within the PUG Community and it just takes one skilled player to turn the Tide...

Even as is, one player can turn the Tide of any Battle now... even with a Group of 8 Premades, BUT it is far less likely since the Premades have Back up when they need it, where as the single PUG Player with high skill will not have Efficient Back up vs the Premades... but as I said it still can be done

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I've gotten PUGs to do each and every one of those for the most part simply by hitting B, taking command, and giving advice as the team commander. Sorry, that doesn't make the other team a premade, it makes them smart and tactically intelligent.

I call BS on that....

PUGs do NOT look at the Map or Listen to the Leader for the most Part.... if you are lucky for most PUGs you will get about 4 that will listen... sometimes the entire team will listen, but that is quite rare.... out of all my Games from Closed Beta and Open Beta, I have had 2-3 Matches where the entire Team Listened and used Great Tactics and Strategies to over come a Premade Team or just another PUG Team

You will find most PUGs will just do their own thing and will not listen to you....

Zeh, on 05 November 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

You just listed about every workable tactic in a broad sense. So anyone who uses any viable tactic is a premade? No wonder PUGs lose. You CANNOT play this game without teamwork.

I would not play this game in a PUG. IMO the design itself says "play with others or lose". As it should. You don't need to join a unit or clan or anything, just find people to group up with and play. Thinking you should be able to play without communicating and working with your team is the problem here. THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE IF YOU WANT TO WIN. And it shouldn't be.

I don't know what the people who seem to be saying "I should be able to jump in a random game, with random people, use no coordination and have a chance" want from the game. How would this be possible? One-shot kills maybe? I really have no clue.

No, you will find most PUGs dont give a Crap about joining a Team.... they have no Reason to and nor should we be forced too... as soon as we are forced to play in a Group by PGI, is the Day that I go somewhere else, and take what ever $$$ I was going to spend here on another Game

This is how PUGs work.... they want a somewhat Fair Game to play, where they can just get in and play and have fun, right now it is NOT Fun playing against Premade Teams and losing 12-20 times in a Row against Preamde Teams


PGI want this game to be an E-Sport... and so you NEED Fair Gameplay to Succeed in this Area, even if the Game is concentrated on Team Base Gameplay, you NEVER... EVER force anyone to join Teams... you LET the Players decide what they want to do and what they Feel is FUN for them... you NEVER chose for them, ever... thats when you chase players away...

[Valore]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Then you doom the game.

How simple is this. If every match is lopsided, people will not pay to play it.

Do you get this point, or is that too advanced for you ?
People wont pay to get pugstomped every match

/game

How many of you like me, read that, and immediately had a flashback of Hudson from Aliens with his immortal line

Edited by Valore, 05 November 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Premade groups are just mad because they might start losing a match or two. God forbid an even playing feild is to be had

Premade groups do not want to lose their advantage. A premade right now very very rarely faces other teams and are winning 90% of their matches if not more.

We know the agenda, we are just sick of it

Hahahaha no.

when the MM bugs out and drops only 3 premade players against 8 pugs they can still win easily, because premade groups with VoIP just have that big of an advantage, 4 man premade groups will pugstomp even more easily, since they'll never run into larger premades than themselves and only ever have to deal with pugs or same sized groups.

[Desecrator]

Zultor, on 05 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

The game needs to handle matchmaking and not the player base. Premade groups are going to continue and I predict get worse while people are trying to grind xp and credits. It is PGI's responsibility to balance the game and they have failed to do so in regards to premades vs. pugs. Heck we all know that groups were shoe-horned into the game for the Nvidia event way back when and we are still paying for it now.

I can't blame friends from wanting to play with each other and since they have no other way to play but use the current matchmaker I can't blame them for creaming pugs. PGI needs to make the matchmaker, and "player experience" as a whole, a much larger focus. Every dev, tester, or <insert job titles here> who can help should be on this issue at the expense of anything else. I know not everyone in the company can work on matchmaking but everyone who makes sense to have on it should be on it.

It does not matter to me who faces what. I could give a **** wheter I face a group of friends or a group of strangers.

What matters to me is that every single match is a boring lopsided affair. Every match is 7-1 or 8-0
I dont lose every match. Sometimes I am on the 8-0 side. Its still boring and repititive

If I didnt buy founders, I would leave and not care, but dammit, I want my 60$ worth and so far all Ive gotten is ******** matches

I was fine with it in beta, but the game is released now, and everything I do now counts.

it is a pretty sad affair when wot kicks your matchmakers arse

[Lin Shai]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

They take money and your progress is not wiped.

They take money? Really? They sent someone to your house and forced you to give them money?

Or are they accepting money from people who want to give it to them?

I realize it's highly likely your next reply will be that I'm arguing semantics, but I hoping you will grasp the difference here.

They are in Open Beta. See the word Beta? It means that the game is unfinished, changes are still occurring, and that it's missing features. Nothing you say will change that fact.

If people are ok with that and want to spend money now, why wouldn't they accept it?

That, quite frankly, would be the stupidest business move in the history of business moves.

Edited by Lin Shai, 05 November 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Sandpit]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Premade groups are just mad because they might start losing a match or two. God forbid an even playing feild is to be had

Premade groups do not want to lose their advantage. A premade right now very very rarely faces other teams and are winning 90% of their matches if not more.

We know the agenda, we are just sick of it

ROFL
Not even going to dignify that with a response. Go troll elsewhere if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion

@Wildcat call BS on it all you like that doesn't change the fact of it. Nor does it change the FACTUAL numbers the Devs released on this subject as opposed to your OPINION on how many times you MIGHT be facing a premade

We shall have a lot of answers come tomorrow and we shall see what the next boogeyman is

[Desecrator]

Valore, on 05 November 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

How many of you like me, read that, and immediately had a flashback of Hudson from Aliens with his immortal line

Loved aliens , game over man, game over

[Valder]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

These are what I have Witnessed, time and time again... some can be overwhelmed by PUGs, as the Premades have gotten too cocky and or screwed up their tactics somewhere... but for the most part, you will lose anywhere from 7-12, or 12-20 matches in a row at times... and depending on the time of day Facing Premade Teams, I know Because this happened in Closed Beta, and nothing has changed

Some of these Strategies can be overcome, other times its far too late for some to realize what has happened

Strategies and Tactics in use by Premade Teams...

• 5-8 Mechs with LRMs of some sort, 1-2 Scouts Targets... Targets are all concentrated on 1 at a time and killed in a matter of Seconds

Actually, this tactic is more in use in PUGs than premades, because 3 out of the 4 trial mechs have LRMs. Premades very rarely have more than 2 missile boats. The reason they focus on 1 target is because it's the beginning of a match when this stuff happens and THERE IS USUALLY ONLY ONE OR TWO PEOPLE ON RADAR TO SHOOT AT.

• 2 groups of 4, East and West... then moving in together to catch the enemy in a crossfire

This doesn't work so hot, so premades very very rarely do this. Because you're chancing that a group of 4 will run into a group of 8 alone. However, sending 1 or two brawlers to a side to distract an emeny while the others move in very quickly from the other side is being used a lot. But splitting your team in half is a bad practice.

• Zerg Rush... Entire Team moves straight to the Enemy Base in a group, sometimes in 1s or 2s to support each other if they encounter any Resistance

Everyone does this. Sometimes it's premades heading up a river together, and sometimes it's PUGs following all the pretty blue arrows.

• Very little use of Trial Mechs, pretty much all Custom Builds, these builds take advantage of very High DPS for each of their Play Style

Trial mechs are getting less and less use every day, because open beta has been around for a week and it only takes a couple days to grind out your own mech.

• Entire Team moves as one, Destroying anything in their Path...

You already listed this one.

• Defend, 6-7 Mechs camp their own base, 1-2 Scouts run out... these scouts drag back anything chasing them and then the Team all concentrate fire on one target at a time, once the Enemy Team is down to about 4 or below Mechs the Defending Team will move out as one and finish anything else off

Smart PUGs on Caustic will do this, as well as River City when they're topside. Premades very rarely sit and wait for onesies and twosies to come towards them unless they're waiting on the rim of Caustic.

• Team will always have 1-2 Mediums supporting each Assault Mech, with LRM Cover concentrating on the Assault Mechs Targets

Any experienced player will shoot the mech that everyone else is shooting.

• You can always tell when the enemy team are using Voice Comms, you can see units being diverted to another area to Support someone else, even if that unit is currently engaged in combat or taking fire, he/she will disengage and move off to support the unit in need of help

This is a thread started by a PUGer where he talks about disengaging to take out LRMs because someone said over chatbox the LRMs needed taken out. Some of his team was on VOIP, but he wasn't and he had no problem pulling off this strategy using text.

• The Premade Team will pretty much do anything to take as little loss as possible during the Match, the Premade Depends on PUGs to get the best possible reward as they can with as little loss in reward as possible

Premades aren't really concerned with rewards, typically. Because they win 9 out of 10 games using tactics so they're not hurting for cbills. Altho, with Open Beta here, I've seen some terrible premades that only win %50 because most of the players were totally new to the game. They are a lot more concerned about rewards, because they don't have any cbills stocked up and they take a lot of damage.

• if one of the Premade Teammates takes too much Damage, the rest of the Team will defend that Teammate and destroy anything trying to kill it off

Running towards a big group of teammates usually has this effect, comms or not. Enemeis will switch over to the closer, more 'in-their-face' targets and the damaged guy that ran past a bunch of friends will typically live a lot longer by passing said enemy off. His friends will then turn and shoot at the enemy who is now shooting them. Any experienced player does this.

• Some of these Strategies cannot be done without Voice Comms, you need to Talk and not Type... you need to update your position, Status and Progress in real time

Not a single one of your points need voice comms to pull off, and you obviously don't play any premades at all because you are very delusional about how they operate. Maybe you should try one sometime and see what they're all about instead of fear-mongering yourself?

[Desecrator]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

ROFL
Not even going to dignify that with a response. Go troll elsewhere if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion

@Wildcat call BS on it all you like that doesn't change the fact of it. Nor does it change the FACTUAL numbers the Devs released on this subject as opposed to your OPINION on how many times you MIGHT be facing a premade

We shall have a lot of answers come tomorrow and we shall see what the next boogeyman is

Rofl, factual numbers ????

You mean the one quote where he played 20 games . ahahaha

20 games is real numbers to you ?

They have released nothing that even resembles factual numbers. You cant even stat something out in less than 1000 games

Wow, you are really grasping at straws. I played 20 games and hardly saw a premade, the mod said.. Yah, thats real numbers for ya

Edited by Desecrator, 05 November 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[hanitora]

Quote

You will find that even with 4 Preamdes for EACH Side (Which is the Plan for the First Stage) this will even out and will be Very Fair for the Match Making system

No it won't be, unless 4 man premade on one team is a 4 man premade on other.
Either premades and pugs should never be mixed at all, or premades should be balanced against eachother and augmented by 1-2 pugs at most (for incomplete group queuing)

[Desecrator]

QuantumButler, on 05 November 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Hahahaha no.

when the MM bugs out and drops only 3 premade players against 8 pugs they can still win easily, because premade groups with VoIP just have that big of an advantage, 4 man premade groups will pugstomp even more easily, since they'll never run into larger premades than themselves and only ever have to deal with pugs or same sized groups.

As i said before, then you doom the game.

What part of your brain wont accept the fact that peopel will not play what they dotn have fun with.

If the matchmaker fails, the game will fall. People will not play a game they have no fun in, so you better hope it does work

[Bilbo]

Desecrator, on 05 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Then you doom the game.

How simple is this. If every match is lopsided, people will not pay to play it.

Do you get this point, or is that too advanced for you ?
People wont pay to get pugstomped every match

/game

Perhaps you missed the part where I said lopsided matches were a regular occurance before groups were implemented. In other words, PuGs were Pugstomping long before the ability to group was in-game. PuG's will continue to pugstomp after the MM overhaul is complete. Once a team has lost 1-2 mechs without taking out 1-2 of their counterparts, the game is/was essentially over. There are rare occassions when the tide can be turned, but those are/were the exception and not the rule.