150 replies to this topic

[Taiji]

Jade Kitsune, on 05 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

PGI is making these huge, sweeping changes to appease the Lone wolf crowd, in a game that is supposed to be focused around teamwork.

First; these 'lone wolves', as you insist on calling them, are playing a team game together. Have you so little experience of this game that you've never been in a well coordinating PUG? Never felt that feeling of joy as help that you never asked for arrives to save your ***? Or the feeling when a cocky premade talks smack and then gets their *** handed to them by your PUG? I've seen a lot of people come on TS and heard them whine about the learning curve and how premades fix it, and I worry that some might turn out like you appear - Still unable to enjoy the game without pretty much guaranteed backup.

But then you also accused PGI of pandering to their customers. Even if it weren't their intention all along to fix the matchmaking, like you probably already even know it was, do you understand why that's not an accusation so much as praise? - We all want PGI to listen to their customers. Some of which happen to be capable of enjoying a lot more of the game than you seem to be.

And the final thing I have to mention is that a great many premade players, though not you of course, are also asking for matchmaking to be fixed due to pugstomping being boring. So I guess you actually manage to find some challenge in pug-stomping, if I give you that much credit.

I just hope you learn to enjoy the PUG side of the game. It can even be a lot more exciting than playing with friends. Trying to overcome the odds with a team that's all trial mechs except you; OK maybe that's a bad example...

Edited by Taiji, 05 November 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[Wildcat]

hanitora, on 05 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

No it won't be, unless 4 man premade on one team is a 4 man premade on other.
Either premades and pugs should never be mixed at all, or premades should be balanced against eachother and augmented by 1-2 pugs at most (for incomplete group queuing)

there will be a Group of 4 Premades per a team, this will even things out, not all 4 group Preamdes will be good, in fact you may see the same amount of skill if not better in the 4 PUGs side of the Group...

Like I said, it is possible for one High Skilled Player to turn the Tide of the Battle... some times its as easy as killing 1-2 Enemy Assault Mechs to turn the Tide of the battle...

Anyone has the ability to the turn the tide of the Battle, sometimes its Luck, sometimes it is Skill alone...

the Fact remains, a group of up to 8 Premades can be soo efficient that nothing can be done to stop them with any PUG Group....

Groups of 4 as I said will even this out, and game play will be somewhat Fair (unlike it is currently) until the second and 3 stages of the Matchmaker are put into place....

[DJMarine]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm not mudslinging, I'm merely pointing out that YOU don't KNOW when you're facing a premade. YOU might THINK you're facing a premade. Devs released hard numbers on this and tested it just to see and announced those numbers because THEY do KNOW when they were playing a premade. People just don't want to listen. I'm not knocking any individual pilot's skills. I AM, however, knocking players' abilities to work as a team instead of crying wolf every time they get rolled


What most of us "pro premies" (can we make that the official party name? lol) are saying is that it's not premades making it like this. We aren't disagreeing with this at all, we ARE disagreeing with saying it's because of premades. It's a skill and teamwork issue, not a solo vs. premade issue.

I think I've made it clear enough though that what I've dealt with, and what I'm referring to were without a doubt premades. Yes, premades still can be beaten, but not in the games current state. You can't organize a coordinated attack without comms.

But, for the sake of argument let's not even blame premades then and instead place the blame on matchmaking in general for not doing a good enough job on ensuring that both teams are well balanced and the matchup should lead to a competitive game. The end result, players being frustrated and not fully enjoying the game, are the same either way.

[Zeh]

Kell Draygo, on 05 November 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

The other option is where when you join this queue, you cannot be in a group at all, from groups of 2 to 8. It's that simple. Then players, solo or groups who want to play a more 'team based game' can do so. Where as the lone wolves can lone wolf all day long and the best skilled players will contribute the most in that queue.

Technically, maybe. If by the best skilled you mean the best leaders. The skilled leaders will contribute the most. Skill is teamwork in this game.

Edited by Zeh, 05 November 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Sandpit]

JayTac, on 05 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

I think I've made it clear enough though that what I've dealt with, and what I'm referring to were without a doubt premades. Yes, premades still can be beaten, but not in the games current state. You can't organize a coordinated attack without comms.

But, for the sake of argument let's not even blame premades then and instead place the blame on matchmaking in general for not doing a good enough job on ensuring that both teams are well balanced and the matchup should lead to a competitive game. The end result, players being frustrated and not fully enjoying the game, are the same either way.

The highlighted portion I wanted to address first. EVERYone has comms. Hit "Y" then type a message. Hit "B" then plot a waypoint. Just because a team chooses to ignore those doesn't mean they don't have comm.

MM is a big part of the problem, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. It's not a premie vs. pug issue though. It's generally a new player vs. experienced player issue. No amount of attacking and blaming premies for this will change that. I've said it several times that after tomorrow you'll see a new boogeyman more than likely.
New players should be secluded to a private area to play against other new players in order to get a feel for the game and some experience piloting before dropping in with experienced players. That simple fix would do wonders for the game. I've NEVER said there weren't problems with MM, I've said premies aren't the problem and boogeyman most players wish them to be

[LogicSol]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Your math is invalid because we have no hard numbers for any of this.

Er nope, still valid.
I'm making predictions based on rough occurrence rates.
From multiple people we have some documentation of 1 in 8 encounter rate, enough to be statistically significant? no.
Other say its every game to every other game. A dev has said 1 in 4.

At 1 in 2 its a 4-8x increase. 1 in 32 for a 7 man, 1 in 16 for a 6. Double the rate and nearly every match will be against a premade, and you will have a 1 in 4 chance to land on their team.
At 1 in 8 its about the same. 1 in 128 for a 7 man, 1 in 64 for a 6. Double the rate and you will run into a premade in 1 in 4 fights, and will have a 1 in 16 chance to land on their team.

[Wildcat]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Your sample size does not affect the outcome. It does leave more room to conduct a larger sample size but let's take a look at something else.
20 games averaging 7 minutes each (about half of a full length match) = 140 minutes
140 minutes = just over 2 hours
2 hours is a good solid run and an exceptionally long time to invest in the game (according to all of the posts regarding the"grind" for new players being too long and 3-4 hours being too much investment to work at getting a custom mech) which means that even though it's only 20 matches it's a decent sample size.
What those of you arguing against sample size completely ignore is that I've seen SEVERAL posts in this thread talking about getting rolled by premades 8 times in a row. So given THAT statistic 20 matches should generate a lot more matches against premades.

I understand where you are coming from

Even with 100 Matches, the Time zones changes drastically.... but if you do like 20 matches between 1pm and 3pm each and every day until you get the 100 over 5 weekdays, this would build up far better Statical Data than from one group of 2 matches done randomly during the Day...

Times zones Matter a GREAT Deal with any F2P or P2P Games, so doing Tests during certain times of the day will Grant you with a great deal of Statical Data

However, the Devs have far better things to do, then to put 100s of man hours into doing Real Tests... so no, I do not Trust the Devs current Figures for the so called Test

I Trust my own Instincts, and I know what to look for...

After you have played sooo many Games from many different angles, you get a Patten that forms with any other Game... and you can see those pattens that form, from a long way off...

[Sandpit]

Wildcat, on 05 November 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I understand where you are coming from

Even with 100 Matches, the Time zones changes drastically.... but if you do like 20 matches between 1pm and 3pm each and every day until you get the 100 over 5 weekdays, this would build up far better Statical Data than from one group of 2 matches done randomly during the Day...

Times zones Matter a GREAT Deal with any F2P or P2P Games, so doing Tests during certain times of the day will Grant you with a great deal of Statical Data

However, the Devs have far better things to do, then to put 100s of man hours into doing Real Tests... so no, I do not Trust the Devs current Figures for the so called Test

I Trust my own Instincts, and I know what to look for...

After you have played sooo many Games from many different angles, you get a Patten that forms with any other Game... and you can see those pattens that form, from a long way off...

I'm not disputing that it is a small sample size. I do, however, still strongly believe that the premie boogeyman is greatly exagerrated and most of the people complaining about this are in for a very rude awakening tomorrow when they realize it wasn't premies causing them to lose like they were and they might actually look inward a bit more and start using tactics and teamwork regardless of VOIP, premie, pug, etc.

Time zones will definitely have a huge impact on sample sizes taken and skews results because of the global aspect of the playerbase. It would honestly take dozens if not hundreds of man hours to properly set up samples, and get a good set of statistics to work with.

[shabowie]

JayTac, on 05 November 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

As easy as it is to blame PGI for releasing an open beta without a proper matchmaking system....

Yes it sure is, that's why I do it.

Seriously, why should I subject myself to random chance with pubs and the frankly bland gameplay that results from no in game voice chat and not fully implemented matchmaking system?

At least in a premade you can still win when 1 or 2 players from your side drop/crash every other match. That and use strategy and tactics to have much more fun play.

Sorry, but if you are too lazy to dl a ts3 client, get a $20 headset and use the free ts3 servers for this community that are out there you deserve to lose and PGI should not be wasting development resources catering to you.

Edited by shabowie, 05 November 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[DJMarine]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

The highlighted portion I wanted to address first. EVERYone has comms. Hit "Y" then type a message. Hit "B" then plot a waypoint. Just because a team chooses to ignore those doesn't mean they don't have comm.

MM is a big part of the problem, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. It's not a premie vs. pug issue though. It's generally a new player vs. experienced player issue. No amount of attacking and blaming premies for this will change that. I've said it several times that after tomorrow you'll see a new boogeyman more than likely.
New players should be secluded to a private area to play against other new players in order to get a feel for the game and some experience piloting before dropping in with experienced players. That simple fix would do wonders for the game. I've NEVER said there weren't problems with MM, I've said premies aren't the problem and boogeyman most players wish them to be

In 2012 I don't really think anyone considers text chat comms anymore. No matter the game most competitive teams require a mic and voip client for a reason. There's just too much information to relay and receive to type it or read while engaged in combat.

Also, there's nothing wrong with the latter, whatever makes the game more competitive on whatever level for everyone is a step in the right direction. Limiting premades is the first step, but the system will definitely still need a lot more work thereafter.

It's not a boogeyman at all either.

Edited by JayTac, 05 November 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Wildcat]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

The highlighted portion I wanted to address first. EVERYone has comms. Hit "Y" then type a message. Hit "B" then plot a waypoint. Just because a team chooses to ignore those doesn't mean they don't have comm.

MM is a big part of the problem, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. It's not a premie vs. pug issue though. It's generally a new player vs. experienced player issue. No amount of attacking and blaming premies for this will change that. I've said it several times that after tomorrow you'll see a new boogeyman more than likely.
New players should be secluded to a private area to play against other new players in order to get a feel for the game and some experience piloting before dropping in with experienced players. That simple fix would do wonders for the game. I've NEVER said there weren't problems with MM, I've said premies aren't the problem and boogeyman most players wish them to be

The thing is tho, Complex Tactics and Strategies cannot be communicated via Typing as efficiently as it can be done with voice Comms... sometimes plans are made ahead of time, even then things change in battle that you had not foreseen, and so Voice Comms is needed to Change Tactics at short notice, standing still trying to type out messages for anywhere from 5-20 seconds can get you killed

[StarfyrGuns]

Lin Shai, on 05 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yes yes, I'm lying to you. Just like the devs are.

I see pre-mades maybe one or two games out of ten.

Now, if you're saying that if someone logs in, plays only 2 games, and both are against "pre-mades"? Possible because of the simple random nature of the matchmaker and the sample size you're talking about. But they just as easily could have been matched against 2 PUGs that were better than them, and would lose all the same.

And another thing some people aren`t understanding Lin..and that`s a lot of pugs I`m sure have realised that getting on TS3 servers isn`t the big bad as they thought, and what we are seeing now are well coordinated "strangers" who have learned it`s better to work together than going off on their own.

And to the guy saying he knows they were all premades cause they spammed their clan/unit web-site...well, ONE person from that unit can do that. It doesn`t mean the entire team are part of the same unit lol.

[Sandpit]

JayTac, on 05 November 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

In 2012 I don't really think anyone considers text chat comms anymore. No matter the game most competitive teams require a mic and voip client for a reason. There's just too much information to relay and receive to type it or read while engaged in combat.

Also, there's nothing wrong with the latter, whatever makes the game more competitive on whatever level for everyone is a step in the right direction. Limiting premades is the first step, but the system will definitely still need a lot more work thereafter.

And in this post you verify everything we've been discussing. It's nor a premie vs pug issue. Teamwork and tactics will trump rambo gameplay in this type of game every time. If you don't feel chat comm is actual comms then why in the world would you complain about those who DO use them and refuse to use them when you have free access to them as well. You don't even have to talk if you're in a situation (babies, wives, etc.) that don't appreciate loud noise when you're playing. You can use headphones and just listen in and still get better coordination.
Should anyone be forced to do this? Of course not.
Should anyone be punished for doing this? Again, of course not
Should players who refuse to take part in any of the forms of comms freely available to them be able to dictate to others how they should play the game simply because they don't want to use that option? No
They should, however, be aware that they're just not going to be as effective in the game as those that do. If this isn't acceptable to them then honestly they are looking into the wrong game. This game isn't going to appeal to everyone.

[Taryys]

I am in this situation. Computer is in bedroom and wife is sleeping when I play.
You do not need to speak in order to benefit from voice comms.

I cover this in my guide: [Guide] Playing with Friends, Groups, and Teams

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

You don't even have to talk if you're in a situation (babies, wives, etc.) that don't appreciate loud noise when you're playing. You can use headphones and just listen in and still get better coordination.
Should anyone be forced to do this? Of course not.
Should anyone be punished for doing this? Again, of course not
Should players who refuse to take part in any of the forms of comms freely available to them be able to dictate to others how they should play the game simply because they don't want to use that option? No
They should, however, be aware that they're just not going to be as effective in the game as those that do. If this isn't acceptable to them then honestly they are looking into the wrong game. This game isn't going to appeal to everyone.

[DJMarine]

I know this is an entirely different game, but I would like to bring up CS:GO's matchmaker as a prime example. In that game I've had matches against 4 clan members (5v5) and won. There, going against premades doesn't matter as much, because the game gives us the tools to place the competing team on the same level, meaning we have voip and have the same capability of communicating and coordinating just as effectively as the clan.

WIthout VOIP, it'd be an entirely different story.

Secondly, it takes player skill and ELO into consideration when forming teams, so the vast majority of the time each match is extremely competitive and intense, which leads to a fun experience.

If you're going to match lonewolfs against premades then we need voip, and/or we also need to ensure that the individual skill level is comparable on each side.

[Taryys]

This is all planned. This is coming.

[Sandpit]

JayTac, on 05 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

I know this is an entirely different game, but I would like to bring up CS:GO's matchmaker as a prime example. In that game I've had matches against 4 clan members (5v5) and won. There, going against premades doesn't matter as much, because the game gives us the tools to place the competing team on the same level, meaning we have voip and have the same capability of communicating and coordinating just as effectively as the clan.

WIthout VOIP, it'd be an entirely different story.

Secondly, it takes player skill and ELO into consideration when forming teams, so the vast majority of the time each match is extremely competitive and intense, which leads to a fun experience.

If you're going to match lonewolfs against premades then we need voip, and/or we also need to ensure that the individual skill level is comparable on each side.

Then get on VOIP lol That's not a snide remark nor an elitist view. You yourself just said you need VOIP. It's freely available to you and all MWO players.

When it comes to MM a few changes that WOULD help as opposed to limiting groups are:
ELO (They are actually working on this now) considerations
A rank experience so new players are "protected" from experienced players for a certain time if they so choose
Tonnage and/or BV values being considered for equal teams. The tonnage match used at moment is one the largest culprits. (8 Awesomes vs 8 Atlases = 640 tons vs. 800 tons and is nowhere near equalized)

Those changes to MM would help out a LOT more than arguing that it's all because premies are being mean

EDIT: I misread your VOIP comment. yes MWO needs an easily accessible integrated VOIP option for solo droppers. They have C3 starting to be implemented and I'm sure we'll get there.

Edited by Sandpit, 05 November 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[DJMarine]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

And in this post you verify everything we've been discussing. It's nor a premie vs pug issue. Teamwork and tactics will trump rambo gameplay in this type of game every time.

For now it is a big part of the issue, as they have something we don't, voice comms. Heavily tilting the match in their favor. But, yes that's only one of many issues to the current matchmaking system.

Quote

If you don't feel chat comm is actual comms then why in the world would you complain about those who DO use them and refuse to use them when you have free access to them as well. You don't even have to talk if you're in a situation (babies, wives, etc.) that don't appreciate loud noise when you're playing. You can use headphones and just listen in and still get better coordination.
Should anyone be forced to do this? Of course not.
Should anyone be punished for doing this? Again, of course not
Should players who refuse to take part in any of the forms of comms freely available to them be able to dictate to others how they should play the game simply because they don't want to use that option? No
They should, however, be aware that they're just not going to be as effective in the game as those that do. If this isn't acceptable to them then honestly they are looking into the wrong game. This game isn't going to appeal to everyone.

What voice comms do I have available to me and can use to communicate with each random team I play with if I'm not in a clan? I'm not saying to punish anyone for using anything, I'm trying to find some sort of middle ground that will lead to a better experience for all players involved. I really have no issue with premades at all, if the MM was intricate enough to consistently place them against worthy teams and there was in-game voip.

[Lin Shai]

JayTac, on 05 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

I know this is an entirely different game, but I would like to bring up CS:GO's matchmaker as a prime example. In that game I've had matches against 4 clan members (5v5) and won. There, going against premades doesn't matter as much, because the game gives us the tools to place the competing team on the same level, meaning we have voip and have the same capability of communicating and coordinating just as effectively as the clan.

WIthout VOIP, it'd be an entirely different story.

Secondly, it takes player skill and ELO into consideration when forming teams, so the vast majority of the time each match is extremely competitive and intense, which leads to a fun experience.

If you're going to match lonewolfs against premades then we need voip, and/or we also need to ensure that the individual skill level is comparable on each side.

And I don't think you'll find any of us arguing against any of those points.

• The matchmaker should be skill (ELO) based. Check! (#1 problem IMHO)
  
• VOIP should be available in game for PUGs. Check! (Even though I'd argue that won't actually help, it would get rid of that as an excuse for losing)
  
• New players in trial mechs should not be thrown in with the sharks. Check!

But the reality of the situation is that we have none of these things right now.

What we do have are workarounds with no barrier to entry. Given that, the logical thing to do is to use them, and encourage others to do so.

[Vaux]

Alexandrix, on 05 November 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Stop saying premades are rare.They aren't.In my experience,as anecdotal as that may be,about every third match is a premade.I counted 20 matches the other night..saturday i think it was...maybe friday,not sure.Anyways,out of those 20 matches 15 admitted being premade(flashing clan webpage/trash talking like high schoolers/8-0 pugstomp/what have you),and 2 more were questionable.Now let's assume a couple matches were just pugs trolling and saying they were premade...and the 2 that were questionable were just organized pubs.So let's be generous and say 10 were premade out of 20.50%.That's not rare by any stretch of the imagination.

Now,you may say "But Alexandrix,my group rarely ever fights another premade! they must be rare!".Well,yea,to your premade they probably are rare.Know why? the matchmaker,that's why.Not all premades run the same set up.ergo,it's unlikely they will face each other.Instead,more often than not,the match maker will cherry pick whatever unfortunate pubbies are in the Q at that time to match the premades set up.Boom.endless pugstomp.

On a good night i get a premade 1 in every 6 matches...if i'm really lucky.no,i'm not exaggerating.

I did a small test of 5 pug matches Sat. I checked the MWO TS servers to see if the teams we were up against were on coms. Four of them were and all of the matches were losses. This isn't a valid sample size of course, but it seems to indicate that pugs may be going up against premade more then folks here think.