532 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

I like how Garth says "I was able to fire my Jenner a lot without getting very hot, enough to kill an Atlas from behind!"

And the community starts grabbing rear armor values and damages. "I dispute your kill!"


You missed the part about where he was able to fire his jenner a lot and not get hot.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Smiles to the WHOLE room, and reminds you that there's 9 Minutes left to the Updated patch release!!

Lets see How it plays

[MrPenguin]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I like how Garth says "I was able to fire my Jenner
a lot without getting very hot, enough to kill an Atlas from behind!"

And the community starts grabbing rear armor values and damages. "I dispute your kill!"


You missed the part about where he was able to fire his jenner a lot and not get hot.

Any point that disproves there point doesn't exist.

I believe the term is called "grasping at straws"?

[Lootee]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Apparently YOU can't read. See the part about Awes and 3 PPCs? See that? It's right there in the part you carefully quoted. So I'm back with you now sir.

PPCs are not long range weapons and are barely usable on the largest mechs that can afford to spend 30 tons on heatsinks.

Try the AWS-9M and get back with us. Preferably after you fight someone with 3 LRM15s or 2 gauss rifles. Then come back and tell us with a straight face everything is balanced.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 06 November 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Zyllos]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I like how Garth says "I was able to fire my Jenner a lot without getting very hot, enough to kill an Atlas from behind!"

And the community starts grabbing rear armor values and damages. "I dispute your kill!"


You missed the part about where he was able to fire his jenner a lot and not get hot.

That depends on their definition of "hot". At the moment, hot only means if the next shot takes you over 100%. What should be happening is if chain firing a lot of your weapons brings you over the 50% mark, which should start slowing down your mech, slowing down torso turning, lowering damage of energy weapons, slowing down RoF for ballistic weaponry, and making lock-on take much longer on missiles.

Now, I agree with Garth that he might be able to take a 4 SBL Jenner and fire with impunity using 0.2 DHS, but that is 4 SBLs, they should be allowed to do this. But I can guarantee him that he could not be doing this with any other larger weapons and still be dissipating 100% of the heat. And if you have any amount of heat built up, that means implementing other heat penalties for heat management should be added to fix the issue.

[Sandpit]

PanchoTortilla, on 06 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

PPCs are not long range weapons and are barely usable on the largest mechs that can afford to spend 30 tons on heatsinks.

Try the AWS-9M and get back with us.

I did try the 9M, used the ER PPCs. Same results. I'm back with you. Funny how it went from
"try long range energy you feeb"
"Uhm I did, it's right there in the post"
"What??? Oh! well uhm try ER PPCs you feeb!"
"I did, now what?"
"Insert whatever non-argument here that tells me to get back with you again"

And PPCs aren't long range weapons??? ROFLMAO that's just you not understanding game mechanics or purely trolling or actaully being that ignorant about weapons if you really believe PPCs aren't long range

[Purlana]

LOL I like how people are trying to argue that PPCs are fine.

There is a reason almost no one ever uses them....

[SteelPaladin]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I like how Garth says "I was able to fire my Jenner a lot without getting very hot, enough to kill an Atlas from behind!"

And the community starts grabbing rear armor values and damages. "I dispute your kill!"


You missed the part about where he was able to fire his jenner a lot and not get hot.

That's actually very much NOT what he said. He said that he was able to tear an Atlas open in his Jenner QUICKLY, and then specifically called out threshold rather than dissipation. I find it far more likely that his Jenner got VERY hot, but the way they handle threshold w/HS meant he didn't shut down.

That's the problem w/having a base threshold of 30 and then adding HS on top of it. You can't have good HS w/o allowing stupid alphas. "Whatever you can sink + 30" is enough to front load a stupid amount of damage if you don't care that it will take you 15-30 seconds of doing nothing to shed the heat (which you don't, if you can one-shot alpha).

They need to tweak the threshold if alphas are worrying them, not neuter dissipation.

[Sandpit]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

LOL I like how people are trying to argue that PPCs are fine.

There is a reason almost no one ever uses them....

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The people who can and do use them effectively are what....? lol
Just because ONE player can't use them or aren't very good with them doesn't mean no one else is

[WardenWolf]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

May I ask why the heat threshold gets moved at all? I didn't play a ton of TT, but I don't remember that in what I did play (and when I've played MekTek more recently)... nor in any of the previous MechWarrior / MechCommander games. If the threshold is the problem, by all means have it either fixed or increased to a lesser extent! The problem most of us seem to have is with heat dissipation, not maximum heat capacity.

Edited by WardenWolf, 06 November 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[Purlana]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The people who can and do use them effectively are what....? lol
Just because ONE player can't use them or aren't very good with them doesn't mean no one else is

The people who can and do use them, could more effectively use a GR provided that the mech can mount them.

Okay, how many people use PPCs on their custom mech builds? Raise your hands....

*Crickets start chirping*

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[Squidhead Jax]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Okay, how many people use PPCs, raise your hand?

*Crickets start chirping*

I do, but only out of sheer stubbornness. I have a mostly-equivalent gauss build that is deadlier and never has heat nor ammo worries (and, of course, doesn't even bother with DHS).

[Lootee]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Okay, how many people use PPCs, raise your hand?

*Crickets start chirping*

Once i put 6 ERPPCs on an AWS and killed 5 ppl with it shutting down about 50 seconds between shots. Since i blew at least 1 person up once it proves everything is fine. Math be damned.

That's the mentality we're dealing with here.

[Sandpit]

PanchoTortilla, on 06 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Once i put 6 ERPPCs on an AWS and killed 5 ppl with it shutting down about 50 seconds between shots. Since i blew at least 1 person up once it proves everything is fine. Math be damned.

That's the mentality we're dealing with here.

No you're dealing with people who refuse to accept that just because it doesn't work in the exact format they want that it must be dumb and broken and useless to everyone

[WardenWolf]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

The people who can and do use them, could more effectively use a GR provided that the mech can mount them.

Okay, how many people use PPCs on their custom mech builds? Raise your hands....

*Crickets start chirping*

Two ERPPCs alongside a GR in my Founders Atlas. I had been greatly looking forward to DHS to help with the heat... but sadly will have to stick with singles (I could not fit the same heat dissipation with the reduced doubles).

If I could have dual Gauss in my Atlas instead? I would absolutely take it. I refuse to pilot the Gausscat because it should not be possible. I will try out a JagerMech or Cataphract with dual Gauss when those are available.

[Lanessar]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I like how Garth says "I was able to fire my Jenner a lot without getting very hot, enough to kill an Atlas from behind!"

And the community starts grabbing rear armor values and damages. "I dispute your kill!"


You missed the part about where he was able to fire his jenner a lot and not get hot.

You can pretty much do that in a Jenner/275XL/6xML when boating sinks currently. 16 heat sinks, alpha heat of 30. I can fire three salvos with SHS before overheating. He says he did this in one. It's not the bloody DHS if one alpha kills an Atlas.

But one-salvo coring an atlas from behind isn't factual; unless said Atlas had severely reduced his rear armor. In which case, I argue that a commando with an XL engine can do the same thing, no matter what the heat modifier is, right now.

If the example is flawed, I'm hoping they aren't basing design decisions off of that.

Edited by Lanessar, 06 November 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[SteelPaladin]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The people who can and do use them effectively are what....? lol
Just because ONE player can't use them or aren't very good with them doesn't mean no one else is

I've gone entire days of multi-hour play w/o seeing a single PPC fire, which I can't say for any other weapon but MGs and flamers. That's anecdotal, though, so I'll be reasonable here. What build exactly are you using a PPC effectively on? I'm (honestly) curious.

[Kraven Kor]

SteelPaladin, on 06 November 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I've gone entire days of multi-hour play w/o seeing a single PPC fire, which I can't say for any other weapon but MGs and flamers. That's anecdotal, though, so I'll be reasonable here. What build exactly are you using a PPC effectively on? I'm (honestly) curious.

Ran into a guy last night with 2x Gauss and 1x ER PPC. He removed my Hunchback's right torso in single alpha (I was fresh but for the damage from a single LRM-20 volley.) Never even got to fire my Gauss that round lol.

Have seen some 2x ER PPC Awesome or Cat builds that at least didn't suck. Usually an Awesome 8Q or 9M with 2x ER PPC and 1x Large Laser or LPL or MPL's.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Sounds like you should play battletech tabletop instead of MWO.

I like this post. If this isn't MechWarrior, then what the hell is it? His entire wall of text is irrelevant to what his topic title states.

[MustrumRidcully]

SteelPaladin, on 06 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's actually very much NOT what he said. He said that he was able to tear an Atlas open in his Jenner QUICKLY, and then specifically called out threshold rather than dissipation. I find it far more likely that his Jenner got VERY hot, but the way they handle threshold w/HS meant he didn't shut down.

That's the problem w/having a base threshold of 30 and then adding HS on top of it. You can't have good HS w/o allowing stupid alphas. "Whatever you can sink + 30" is enough to front load a stupid amount of damage if you don't care that it will take you 15-30 seconds of doing nothing to shed the heat (which you don't, if you can one-shot alpha).

They need to tweak the threshold if alphas are worrying them, not neuter dissipation.

If it was really a 3 second kill (and he may have been exaggerating, the only energy weapon that can do that is the PPC.
All other energy weapons have effectively a longer recycle time than 3 seconds.

If it was 4-5 seconds actually, it could have been a Large Laser. The highest number of energy weapons a Jenner can have his 6.

6 Large Lasers are out, I think (42 tons?).
6 Medium Lasers are definitely possible. That's 6 x 5 = 30 damage per salvo, for a total of 60 within a 4 second time frame.
6 Small Lasers are also possible and are already used. That would be a total of 18 in a 4 second time frame.
6 Medium Pulse Lasers may also be possible, 64 damage. (12 tons sounds a bit much, though)

Total Heat of 6 MLs: 6 x 4 = 24 heat per volley, or a total of 48. The 2nd volley is posssible, but will overheat you if you have less than 18 heat sinks (or 9 full DHS). A 3rd volley would require a heat capacity of over 60, which neccessitates 30 heat sinks or 15 DHS.
Total Heat of 6 SL: 6 x 2 = 12 heat per volley, for a total of 24. This is possible eve without heat sinks
Total Heat of 6 MPL: 6 x 5 = 30 heat per volley, for a total of 60. This would require 30 heat sinks or 15 DHS.

The 6 SL build already works just fine without DHS.

I am not sure that 60 or 64 damage is enough to crack an ATlas rear armour, but let's say it is.
So I would suspect it's the 6 Medium Laser build. Unless he was actually using a different Jenner.
THe problem here seems not to be the dissipation, but the capacity. Yet they nerf both. My favorable interpretation is that they don't have a way currently to seperate dissipation and heat capacity values.
But it was already suggested before that DHS could have the doubled dissipation but only haf the heat capacity (e.g. Heat Capacity for them could be 15 + # of DHS for example. Or just 30 + # DHS.)

Note, however, that the damage ifgure is not that impressive actually, not even for a Jenner.

Let's take a 4 Small Laser Jenner with 2 SRM4s.
4 Small Laser: 4 x 3 = 18 damage per volley. 4 x 2 = 8 heat
2 SRM4: 2 x 10 = 20 damage per volley. 4 x 3 = 12 heat.
Total Damage per Volley: 38. Total Heat per Volley: 20

So you can actually deliver 76 damage and 40 heat with just 10 standard heat sinks if you use non-energy weapons. Of course you can argue that the SRM4s won't all hit CT. Certainly a bit less reliable than the MLs - but still a lot of damage with little heat. And the main contributor to damage is the low heat weapon here.

60 damage would of course also be possible in 4 seconds with 2 Gauss Rifles. With a total production of 4 heat. The only drawback is you can't put that on a Jenner, so you'll be a bit slower and less maneuverable.


So if they are concerned about these scenarios, then they need to start looking at all the weapons and if heat really is the great limiter on damage output, or if it isn't ultimately the rate of fire for many weapons. Quite possible they will be forced to lower the damage output of weapons directly if they don't want to lower the ROF much more, and don't want to increase the heat of some weapons.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.