532 replies to this topic

[The Herrick]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

Aren't mechs supposed to fear jenners sneaking behind them?

Regardless, it sounds like it'd make more sense to change small lasers or the fatlas rear armour total, rather than nerf DHS to the point where it is useless. After all this change impacts every mech in the game rather than just the Jenner or the Atlas.

[Purlana]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

No you're dealing with people who refuse to accept that just because it doesn't work in the exact format they want that it must be dumb and broken and useless to everyone

That's because people that can actually do math figured out that PPCs are pretty much useless when compared to GRs...

Wait untill we have assults that can mount 2+ GRs, PPCs will go extinct.

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[MCXL]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

That's because people that can actually do math figured out that PPCs are pretty much useless when compared to GRs...

Wait untill we have assults that can mount 2+ GRs, PPCs will go extinct.

That would be true.

Look at my thread if you have the time, (link in description) its a wealth of knowledge.

[Super Mono]

HRR Insanity, on 06 November 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

The only reason that happened is because the Devs stubbornly refuse to add weapon spread which fixes ALL of your complaints and allows canon weapon, heat, armor, and damage values.

That's the problem. It's always been the problem.

Add cone of fire, fix MWO.

Insanity

This is a huge issue right here and one the devs seem to ignore in favor of blaming anything and everything else for MWO's weird balance in comparison to the tabletop.

If something like cone of fire or delayed convergence isn't going to be added then the weapons should have been respecced from the ground up to factor in player-aiming.

[Liberty]

I agree in that this game is beginning to evolve into something that is nothing like Battletech or Mechwarrior and is only painted as such. I've played Mechwarrior with the sound turned up so that every walking step of my mech made me feel there is a T-Rex by the house some where. Mechwarrior was fun and made me feel like I was piloting a mech. PGI should have stuck with what worked and kept a build similar to the game mechanics of Mechwarrior 3 althougsh I'd probably make LRMs strictly line of sight unless you have a spotter. The spotter is what would allow you to shoot over hills and give Light Mechss a good scouting role. Current LRM status simply umbrellas the whole field making not only stock mechs worthless but also non long range custom builds. Yes, a fast mech can close and kill a missile boat but will be in range of another missile boat while doing so. PGI is too far in Beta now to turn back so they will be in a continuos loop of patch patch patch. Anything new implemented will likely drastically impact other mechs and have the possibility to make them worthless. Considering people are paying money for mechs, I don't think they are going to appreciate their working build becoming useless without a refund. The result is that players are going to leave the game.

Its too late now but I'd suggest going to MW3 ruleset and implement strict LOS unless spotters are used. Remove double armor and make double heatsinks effective. Right now I see disaster on the horizon for when Clan Mechs arrive. Game is terribly unbalanced for IS so I can't imagine what that monkey wrench will do when thrown in the gears.

[Kaziganthi]

Liberty, on 06 November 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

LRMs strictly line of sight unless you have a spotter. The spotter is what would allow you to shoot over hills and give Light Mechss a good scouting role. Current LRM status simply umbrellas the whole field making not only stock mechs worthless but also non long range custom builds. Yes, a fast mech can close and kill a missile boat but will be in range of another missile boat while doing

Umm thats how they are. Unless I can see the target or have someone spotting for me, my missiles pound into the ground or explode in the air when they pass max range.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 06 November 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Windies, on 06 November 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Another thing to consider is that maybe he cored the Atlas so easy because of the internal damage bug? It does kind of make sense.

OMG... You may even be correct on that one.

[CCC Dober]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

Now we come to the core of the problem Mr. Ekman. You said it yourself, you were able to do so with a Jenner and are probably able to do so with a Swayback or any other Small/Medium Laser boat.

Fix the handful of Mechs or weapons that break the game. The moment you try to alter the core rules of the game to accomodate these few Mechs and weapons, that's where you break stuff badly.

As it happens, this is what we have now and excuse me for pointing it out, but we don't bite the beta bait anymore. Not after you gents decided to open shop and stop all resets. If you implement core features and still don't have a clue how to scale properly (tripled rate of fire, tripled armor, tripled heat production, tripled heat dissipation), then the competence of you and your team is in question and rightfully so.

Let me help you out on this one. Russ pointed out that we are an awesome community and he's damn right about that. So why don't you start to make use of this untapped resource for a start and give the people a game that is worth their money? We came for Mechwarrior and not some kind of travesty that lacks any kind of direction and spirit. If you want to sell a Mechwarrior game, then pretty please stick to the plan and don't try to reinvent the wheel. Double Heatsinks are double for a reason. Period.

Edited by CCC Dober, 07 November 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Kmieciu]

We are already getting "cone of fire" with SRMs, SSRMs, LRMs, LBX, machineguns and flamers.

Where is the "boating nerf" we`ve been told about?

If 4 Medium Lasers grouped together were not pinpoint accurate, an AC20 would have at least one advantage over them.

[Hubis]

Kmieciu, on 07 November 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

We are already getting "cone of fire" with SRMs, SSRMs, LRMs, LBX, machineguns and flamers.

Where is the "boating nerf" we`ve been told about?

If 4 Medium Lasers grouped together were not pinpoint accurate, an AC20 would have at least one advantage over them.

We're not, ever, because there's no need for it.

[Joehunk]

aspect, on 05 November 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I only read a small amount of your post. Wall of text complaints that are filled with references to a 90's tabletop game are not my forte.

You seem to be suggesting it's the OP's fault for playing a TT build and expecting TT results. If it's the OP's fault, why are the trial mechs stock TT builds? Also, why is mech design still 100% TT compatible? If you're going to break TT performance but try to keep TT mech design, you end up with unintended results which is where we are at.

[Mister Zeus]

Lanessar, on 06 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

Want to know how the system went wrong?

PGI introduced rate of fire without mitigating the other two "legs" of heat and damage.

A PPC does 10 damage, generates 10 heat and fires once per 10 seconds. The mech also dissipates 1 heat per 10 seconds (per heat sink) in tabletop.

In MWO, a PPC does 10 damage, generates 10 heat, and fires once every 4 seconds. The mech also dissipates 0.1 heat per second (1 heat per 10 seconds) - same as TT. Most weapons fire 2-3 times per 10 second interval - but generate the same heat as their 10-second TT counterparts.

And we have heat problems? Do tell.

I'm pretty sure everyone here can figure out where the system went wonky from here. It's basic math.

I don't believe TT values should be adhered to. But don't take TT values and then frack with them by introducing ROF and then expect a balanced system. It's BASIC MATH.

Play Solaris VII and realize that PGI didn't do anything wrong at all. Fire discipline will give you the CBT heat balance you want, but if you want to ride the redline like you have to in MWO if you are in a brawl, then read the Solaris VII rules, understand that they introduce different fire rates and four 2.5 second turns instead of one 10 second round like CBT, and that it adds a hell of a lot of viability to some of the weapons that are generally overlooked in CBT.

The AC/5 in Solaris VII is dead 'ard, for example, because it can fire more often than a PPC and for much less heat. It is a weapon that lets you continue to attack your enemy while their main guns are reloading or they are trying to seek cover and cool down. This gives you plenty of reasons to take another look at some of the old mech designs and see them in a glorious new light. I highly recommend checking Solaris VII out and getting a new perspective on CBT that has quietly influenced the Mechwarrior franchises for years.

[Frosted]

It feel like mechwarrior too me. I mean lasers,missle,acs and no rear view mirror.

[Poopy Joe]

Can the Devs change the title of the game to something other then Mechwarrior?

Once you start putting in random idiotic ruleset that differs from TT and or other MW titles can you really call this a MW now?

Double heatsinks not doing Double Heat disspation. Weapons do too much heat.

Sence this game breaks common Lore anyway just have DHS have 2 Crit slots.

[Farmer]

Jeff K Notagoon, on 06 November 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

Also balance and fun is more important than canon.

AC10 was balanced, after heat sinks, with a LLAS in TT. The two were comprable, hence the CN9-A and the CN9-AL. The two had roughly the same damage output, with the A having a slightly higher damage initially, but being ammo limited. The two aren't comparable in MWO, and if the AC10 didn't randomly fire at the moon instead of your reticle, it would be inherently better. So balance is nice and pretty. If it existed.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

so i was some crazy guy back in july banging off about sensors....and now we watch this trainwreck unfold...

[Kekrebos]

Mister Zeus, on 07 November 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Play Solaris VII and realize that PGI didn't do anything wrong at all. Fire discipline will give you the CBT heat balance you want, but if you want to ride the redline like you have to in MWO if you are in a brawl, then read the Solaris VII rules, understand that they introduce different fire rates and four 2.5 second turns instead of one 10 second round like CBT, and that it adds a hell of a lot of viability to some of the weapons that are generally overlooked in CBT.

The AC/5 in Solaris VII is dead 'ard, for example, because it can fire more often than a PPC and for much less heat. It is a weapon that lets you continue to attack your enemy while their main guns are reloading or they are trying to seek cover and cool down. This gives you plenty of reasons to take another look at some of the old mech designs and see them in a glorious new light. I highly recommend checking Solaris VII out and getting a new perspective on CBT that has quietly influenced the Mechwarrior franchises for years.

As someone who ran a Mechwarrior TT campaing for years, we dabled with the Solaris VII rules for one weekend just for kicks, to see if it would add anything to the game.

Guess what, everyone threw out all their PPCs LL and mounted Small Lasers and Machineguns. Infact, everyone crammed in as many machineguns as they could and owned their opponents.

My players practically had a revolt until I promised we would never ever use those silly rules again.

Wait a second...

[Purplefluffybunny]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.
Small lasers on a fast moving 'mech was an instant win button, LRMs were grossly ineffective, and Autocannons were next to useless.

Although I can respect the opinion that perhaps PGI has strayed too far from the TT values, I feel that almost every single change has been for the better. Things are still in a state of balancing and fluctuation. Adherence to the original TT rules is great, however, there comes a time when the TT fail in a First Person setting such as this.
The TT rules were very complex for a TT game, however, they represent , in some cases, abstract values and concepts that are not needed in a environment such as this. The rules do not scale well and must be adapted.


Again, I can respect your opinion, I hope you can understand that perhaps not everyone will agree with you.


Cheers.

Here, Here!

[Mister Zeus]

Rallog, on 07 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

As someone who ran a Mechwarrior TT campaing for years, we dabled with the Solaris VII rules for one weekend just for kicks, to see if it would add anything to the game.

Guess what, everyone threw out all their PPCs LL and mounted Small Lasers and Machineguns. Infact, everyone crammed in as many machineguns as they could and owned their opponents.

My players practically had a revolt until I promised we would never ever use those silly rules again.

Wait a second...

A single weekend of play certainly represents a fully fleshed out and tested experience with a new rule set. By all means, keep that one experience with the Solaris VII rules as the de-facto experience of anyone and everyone who has ever played with them.

But on that subject, what were you doing wrong letting the battlefield be dominated by 90 meter range (120 meter extreme range) weapons? Did the player's opposition have nothing but CBT tweaked god mechs mounting nothing but ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles? Did they have no secondary or tertiary weapons of their own to bring to bear on your players when they got into knife fighting range?

Regardless, the only point you make is one that can be easily adjusted by tweaking the refire rates or damages of weapons over that refire rate to prevent insane rapid fire instant death. Notice how PGI didn't have Machine Guns do 8 points of damage every 10 seconds like they could in Solaris VII? You do have a point about small lasers though, but at least they make more sense to adjust refire rate for while machine guns are defined by a rapid/constant fire rate and thus necessitate a damage adjustment to balance them.

On the subject of small lasers, they are effective if you can close range. This appears to be easy to do in MWO due to a.) lag shields on light mechs, and b.) speed cuts to assault mechs which prevents them from keeping their distance somewhat from faster opponents in order to keep their big guns on them for a little longer. But at least the number of them you can mount on a mech is limited rather than unlimited like in CBT.

There is no rule that says PGI has to adhere to a 10 second delay between firing every weapon. There is also no rule saying that the heat system must directly copy that of CBT. I actually prefer the Solaris VII heat system since it eliminate ******** alpha strikes from mechs like Masakari's or Awesomes and forced them to have to spread their fire out a bit more. It encouraged mixed weapon designs to take advantage of different situations regarding range, cover, heat, ammunition levels, and weapon reload/recharge. That a few weapons were overpowered is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. If that were the case, CBT would be in the same boat as Solaris VII, but because of the opposite end of the weapon spectrum (i.e. super heavy weapons are supreme in CBT, small fast refiring weapons are supreme in Solaris VII provided you can close range quickly).

Seems like there has got to be a happy medium ground somewhere between those two.

[Diablobo]

None of this discussion would be happening if the MWO heat system wasn't completely and totally broken.

When a mech can never reach a zero heat level there is something seriously wrong. The simple act of running makes the heat bar rise and as long as you are running or moving at all, it will never go down to zero.

WHAAAAT??? Do you really mean to tell me that a mech that can dissipate enough heat to fire multiple PPC's is going to show a rise in heat levels from moving? Come on, man.

Right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE to design a heat-neutral mech in MWO. It doesn't matter how many heatsinks you stick on a mech, as soon as you move, the heat bar starts to rise. BROKEN, WEAK, STUPID.