28 replies to this topic

[Sulaarn]

I really don't understand why anyone would go endo steel unless it was to free up weight that you're probably not going to be able to use because it uses up all of you crit slots. Ferro fib at least gives you an armor bonus. So what's the point of endo steel? I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just kind of want to hear arguments in favor of endo.

[Valaska]

Sulaarn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I really don't understand why anyone would go endo steel unless it was to free up weight that you're probably not going to be able to use because it uses up all of you crit slots. Ferro fib at least gives you an armor bonus. So what's the point of endo steel? I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just kind of want to hear arguments in favor of endo.

Sulaarn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I really don't understand why anyone would go endo steel unless it was to free up weight that you're probably not going to be able to use because it uses up all of you crit slots. Ferro fib at least gives you an armor bonus. So what's the point of endo steel? I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just kind of want to hear arguments in favor of endo.

To save weight!

[Gray Carlyle]

Its actually the opposite. ES=good FF=near useless

[Dagnome]

You will always get more tonnage using Endo steel instead of F.Fiber. I would never really suggest to anyone to use F.Fiber at this time.

Edited by Dagnome, 05 November 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[Like a Sir]

Sulaarn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I really don't understand why anyone would go endo steel unless it was to free up weight that you're probably not going to be able to use because it uses up all of you crit slots. Ferro fib at least gives you an armor bonus. So what's the point of endo steel? I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just kind of want to hear arguments in favor of endo.

HAHAHAHAHAHA FF doesn't give you the armor bonus... you have the same amount of armor, with the same mitigation. It is not implemented right, and it saves less weight then endo steel. At this point of time, there is absolutely no reason to go FF, because of the way it was implemented... Sorry.

[Helmer]

EDO steel gives you 5% of your 'mech weight back at the cost of 14 Critical Slots.

So a 100 ton Atlas with Endo Steel would free up 5 tons , a 50 ton Hunchback would get 2.5 Tons back, etc.

Currently FF gives you 12% more armor per ton. So instead of 32 points per ton, you get (almost) 36 points. You technically do not get a higher maximum armor value (although I think it would be a GREAT idea) you just get more points per ton.

Mathematically Endo is far superior. Hopefully they consider adding something else to the FF to make it more viable a counterpart to EndoSteel ( although doing so would undoubtedly cause some heartache in the forums) .
Giving you 12% more points per ton AND a 12% maximum armor bump for a chassis might make FF more attractive for some.



Cheers.

[AC]

And it costs way more. FF is pretty worthless.

[Like a Sir]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

EDO steel gives you 5% of your 'mech weight back at the cost of 14 Critical Slots.

So a 100 ton Atlas with Endo Steel would free up 5 tons , a 50 ton Hunchback would get 2.5 Tons back, etc.

Currently FF gives you 12% more armor per ton. So instead of 32 points per ton, you get (almost) 36 points. You technically do not get a higher maximum armor value (although I think it would be a GREAT idea) you just get more points per ton.

Mathematically Endo is far superior. Hopefully they consider adding something else to the FF to make it more viable a counterpart to EndoSteel ( although doing so would undoubtedly cause some heartache in the forums) .
Giving you 12% more points per ton AND a 12% maximum armor bump for a chassis might make FF more attractive for some.



Cheers.

Yep, I was hoping it would be something like, it would definately make FF different from ES and worth getting, especially considering that it costs more to repair the FF then the normal armor.

[Protection]

I liked the previously suggested idea that Ferro Fibrous could increase the maximum armour by 12% as well. That might balance it out against Endo Steel better.

As a possible design decision.

As it stands, Endo is far better.



Before outfitting a mech with Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, or Double Heatsinks - be sure that you actually want to do it. It costs money to make the switch, and it costs more money to go back - so tinkering is for the rich.


Endo Steel over Ferro Fibrous 100% of the time. Never ever, ever, ever take Ferro Fibrous unless you already have Endo Steel. Never ever.

Simple Explanation: (Ferro Fibrous will save you anywhere from 0.5 tons to maybe 2.5 tons, Endo Steel will save you between 1 and 5 tons, and Ferro Fibrous will never save you more tonnage thanEndo Steel.)

Detailed Explanation: (Endo Steel halves the weight of your internal structure. Since Internal Structure weights 10% of your mech's weight, you get half of that back. That is, you get 5% of your mechs tonnage more to spend on weapons and armour and other goodies. A 20 ton mech gets 1 extra ton with Endo Steel, a 50 ton mechs gets 2.5 tons, a 100 ton mech gets 5 tons. Remember, this extra tonnage is tonnage you can use to pay for more regular armour. Ferro Fibrous armour gives you 12% more armor points per ton. It does not increase your maximum armour, it just discounts the price of the tonnage you pay for armour. Now, pretending that you are running close to the maximum armour on each mech, you are spending maybe 20% of that mech's weight on armour. Which means the 12% extra comes out of that 20. Which means, while Endo Steel is a flat 5% savings, Ferro Fibrous is 12% of 20% or a paltry 2.4% savings (assuming you absolutely maximize armour - it's even worse if you strip armour anywhere). A 20 ton mech will save 0.5 tons, a 50 ton mech will save 1.5 tons, a 100 ton mech will save 2.5 tons.)

Seriously, every time you build a mech with Ferro Fibrous but no Endo Steel, a kitten is punched in the face.


Rule of Thumb:


Light Mechs - both Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous - you have the extra critical slots, use them
Medium Mechs - Endo Steel always, maybe Ferro Fibrous if you can fit it in (likely not with ballistic weaponry)
Heavy Mechs - Probably Endo Steel, probably not Ferro Fibrous - not enough Critical Space
Assault Mechs - Maybe Endo Steel, No to Ferro Fibrous - Critical Space is very hard to come by

Edited by Protection, 05 November 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Cragger]

Ferro Fibrous has only ever been useful on sub 40 ton and better the smaller you get. Even tiny weight savings for a 20-40 chassis can help. Plus as those chassis have no way to even hope to use up all their slots. FF has never been good for heavier mechs. Even End can be argued for certain 100 ton assaults to not be a worthwhile use of space.

[JewBoy]

Only time i've ever used FF + ES is on my gauss cat, just because i'm too broke to afford a XL engine.

[Tickdoff Tank]

JewBoy, on 05 November 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Only time i've ever used FF + ES is on my gauss cat, just because i'm too broke to afford a XL engine.

FF armor will cost you a lot in repairs. Might be best to go without FF for now and save up for that XL.

[Sarevos]

Sulaarn, on 05 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I really don't understand why anyone would go endo steel unless it was to free up weight that you're probably not going to be able to use because it uses up all of you crit slots. Ferro fib at least gives you an armor bonus. So what's the point of endo steel? I'm not trying to be inflammatory I just kind of want to hear arguments in favor of endo.

? I use endo and xl on one of my cats for 2LPLs 2 meds 2 streaks maxed speed and armor and 19dbl heatsinks (if you include the ones in the engine) it has pretty beastly sustained damage in the current environment the 3 tons you gain from endo is rather important even if its small

Id imagine it being important on the heavy med more than assault or light

Edited by Sarevos, 05 November 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[HugeGuns]

I have FF, Endo and X-L engine in my Cat... It's all good until the repair bill.

Loses money until a "GOOD" win

[Mylar]

Break even point for endo vs ferro.

For a 100ton mech you get 5 tons from endo. You would need to mount 47 tons of normal armor to make ferro worthwhile, you would only need around 42 tons of ferro.
Can you put 1500 points of armor on an atlas?

The less armor you mount, the worse ferro gets.

A commando gets 1 ton from endo (stupid rounding)
I generally run with 5 tons of armor on my commando, 160 points.
I could do 4.5 of ferro for 162 points and save half a ton.
Even with endo getting the short end of the rounding stick, it's still TWICE as good as ferro for that mech.
That being said, if you dont mind the repair costs get both. What else are you going to do with your crit space on a commando?

[Barlow]

Ferro is useless only if u like high repair bills, yes then take ferro

[Broceratops]

op should be a little embarrassed.

[RG Notch]

Broceratops, on 06 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

op should be a little embarrassed.

No PGI should do a better idea of explaining the upgrades.

[Tauman Malthus]

Broceratops, on 06 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

op should be a little embarrassed.

OP had an honest question, to us Battle tech veterans whether it be table top or in game there is no reason for FF as many have said already unless you simply have the crit and money to handle it. The Forums aren't always the easiest to navigate and there are enough bugs and miss-information out there that it can be confusing, plus he asked nicely.[/color]

Edited by Tauman Malthus, 06 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Caladan Nix]

FF primarily exists for 'living' campaigns. FF is a lot easier to get and maintain than Endo Steel, you don't need a rare orbital factory with gifted engineers to make FF.

I know, holds minimal meaning here or in campaigns that are short-term, but still...