81 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Draco Argentum, on 08 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

One battle? Mere anecdotal evidence! We must solve this with graphs and spreadsheets.

You are correct.


Seems tight, but I believe I may be winning.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protection, on 08 November 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

I'm moreso arguing that Inner Sphere tech 1 should compare against Inner Sphere tech 2 well, and be balanced for gameplay - even if lore says it is superior.

Clans are almost a separate matter.

Star League tech (lvl2) has always been suprior to Succession War tech (Lvl1). Outside of Double sinks and XL engines I rarely used Advanced tech, Gauss was an exception. To me the extra range wasn't worth the heat. Ultra's jammed ACs didn't, and LB-X cannons were only margenally better and useful for crit seeking.

[Stormwolf]

I really want to maintain the tech level differences from the canon, but the mentality of powergamers will no doubt ruin it for the people who are just here to have fun.

[CodeNameValtus]

I would like to see Lance vs. Star for Clan vs. IS matches (Lance is 4 mechs, Star is 5, so no matter the number, you give IS 25% more mechs, not tonnage, mechs...)
This would equate to 4v5, 8v10 and 12v15...some of these people spouting off at 8v12 and crap have no idea why these numbers are in place.

There's a canon reason, and a balance reason when it came down to the clan invasions. Clan pilots have this idea of honor in battle, and that fighting superior numbers proves that they are better pilots (let's not forget that they have strictly better tech between their legs as well). BV 2.0 is about as close to a matchmaking system they can get. I've always kind of been opposed to their current implementation of a medium mech is a medium mech and an assault mech is an assault mech...No 2 mechs are really equal....Take for example a stock AWS-8Q, with it's 3 PPCs, and a handful of other systems. vs. an Atlas-K, which has a good deal of level 2 tech. Their BV 2.0 is radically different, as it should be, the Atlas has more armor, more tonnage, and more heat efficient weapons along with level 2 tech that is strictly an upgrade. Yet in our current matchmaking system, these two are considered equals.

[Aym]

Komori, on 08 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Then the game you want is not the game I want. Since they went to trouble of obtaining the Battletech license, I want this game to be Battletech, not some weird mishmash. I think Tech 2 in itself offers enough choices, and there is no need to cling to Tech 1.

They also have the MW license, and that's what the game is called. They didn't build the game on hexes or include role playing like in the books, and they've added something called weapons hardpoints. I think you may be misunderstanding the balance issues that will be present. Ultimately what sort-of-worked for table top (because table top was NOT perfectly balanced, Chess isn't even perfectly balanced and both sides have to use the exact same peices on a square board that in perfect symmetry) will ultimately NOT work in a dynamic real time environment as was shown clearly in the earliest beta stages.

[Aym]

CodeNameValtus, on 08 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

BV 2.0 is about as close to a matchmaking system they can get. I've always kind of been opposed to their current implementation of a medium mech is a medium mech and an assault mech is an assault mech...No 2 mechs are really equal....Take for example a stock AWS-8Q, with it's 3 PPCs, and a handful of other systems. vs. an Atlas-K, which has a good deal of level 2 tech. Their BV 2.0 is radically different, as it should be, the Atlas has more armor, more tonnage, and more heat efficient weapons along with level 2 tech that is strictly an upgrade. Yet in our current matchmaking system, these two are considered equals.

And yet BV 2.0 is still absurd for our real time environment. The Hunchback 4G has a higher battle value than the Swayback, let's try that on for size in-game. No one, and I mean NO one will argue that with equal skill the stock 4g is better than the swayback.

[Purlana]

If clan tech is not going to be superior then WTF is the point?

May as well not have clan tech at all...

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

If clan tech is not going to be superior then WTF is the point?

May as well not have clan tech at all...

IF it is not directly superior in ALL ways then the point will be to have it be different, therefore giving players options. I'm intensely curious what PVP games so many of you play where 1 thing is clearly superior to the alternatives and the game is still engaging. I can't think of any.

[MustrumRidcully]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

IF it is not directly superior in ALL ways then the point will be to have it be different, therefore giving players options. I'm intensely curious what PVP games so many of you play where 1 thing is clearly superior to the alternatives and the game is still engaging. I can't think of any.

Actually, lots of games have this - they usually just include a levelling process where your c haracter gets more powerful and gets better gear - and usually, the PvP matches are also balanced at least around some level brackets.

I am not really a fan of all the leveling power creep. It's in the end just a treadmill. Though in MW:O/Battletech case, it may be a bit different from other games. In MW:O, the main gain is on the offensive side. There seem to be very little improvements on the armour side - mechs just carry more and/or better weapons as the time progresses. Which means that the gameplay will move from slower to faster.

Question is - is that desirable? PGI seems to have nerfed DHS at least in part because they think combat would become too fast (wether the data or rather anecdotes they brought up were representatitive or not - the rationale behind it should stay the same). .

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 November 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Purlana]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

IF it is not directly superior in ALL ways then the point will be to have it be different, therefore giving players options. I'm intensely curious what PVP games so many of you play where 1 thing is clearly superior to the alternatives and the game is still engaging. I can't think of any.

Almost EVERY MMO PvP game which has gear in it....

Even many FPS games have skill and gear upgrades. You must not have played many online games recently.

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[Sayyid]

It should be the original concept of 3015!

No advanced level 2 tech, no clans, no need to balance ER vs regular, or Pulse vs Ultra!

[Krivvan]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Almost EVERY MMO PvP game which has gear in it....

Even many FPS games have skill and gear upgrades.

Every competitive PvP game doesn't.

[Purlana]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Every competitive PvP game doesn't.

Define competitive PvP.

Even RTS games have upgrades to units / tech, and some of those are pretty competitive...

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[Great Grey Wolf Sif]

They have to get the game working right first. They keep trying. But rhey fix one thing and break something else every daRn time.

[MustrumRidcully]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Define competitive PvP.

Even RTS games have upgrades to units / tech, and some of those are pretty competitive...

Usually those upgrades happen within a match, which is not the same.

Unless we start making salvage mechanics so that everyone starts with a regular IS Tech mech and as he kills other mechs, he can upgrade his weapons to higher level tech...

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Almost EVERY MMO PvP game which has gear in it....

Even many FPS games have skill and gear upgrades. You must not have played many online games recently.

Please elaborate. Any ACTUAL competitive PVP game I'm aware of has everyone in the competitive environment on EVEN footing in respect to gear available. You might mistake competetive PVP games with casual PVE games.

[Purlana]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

Usually those upgrades happen within a match, which is not the same.

Unless we start making salvage mechanics so that everyone starts with a regular IS Tech mech and as he kills other mechs, he can upgrade his weapons to higher level tech...

I assume clan tech will be available to the entire player base. So I see no reason why there would be any imbalance. You simple gather the resource (C-Bills) and make the upgrade.

[Aym]

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

Define competitive PvP.

Even RTS games have upgrades to units / tech, and some of those are pretty competitive...

Exactly, you START the game with the same 5 workers, which is TOTALLY different than starting the game with different levels of tech in MWO.

Purlana, on 08 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

I assume clan tech will be available to the entire player base. So I see no reason why there would be any imbalance. You simple gather the resource (C-Bills) and make the upgrade.

Ok, this is something we are arguing against not from a balance perspective but one of player choice for fun. Yes we can all agree that if Clan Tech is available to ALL players at a price ALL players can afford to field ALL the time then balancing will be fine, but will it be fun? What's the point of the mechlab when everyone will use the same cookie-cutter loadouts because they are so demonstrably better.

[Purlana]

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Please elaborate. Any ACTUAL competitive PVP game I'm aware of has everyone in the competitive environment on EVEN footing in respect to gear available. You might mistake competetive PVP games with casual PVE games.

Did they state that clan tech would be unavailable to part of the player base? My belief is that clan tech will be available to everyone...

Aym, on 08 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

What's the point of the mechlab when everyone will use the same cookie-cutter loadouts because they are so demonstrably better.

We already have that situation now to an extent.

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[Great Grey Wolf Sif]

Maybe after the game actually works and they fix all the isht that they broke so far. then Maybe yea. Then they can fix that, sicne they don't internally test anything.