425 replies to this topic

[VampireMoose]

Grok, on 07 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Can I have my CBills back? I spent a long time getting the 3 million to upgrade my two mechs, I could have got a new mech if I had known...wasting peoples time is a good way to put them off the game.

If something is getting patched to such a degree I fell a refund is in order.

+1

[Egomane]

Would you be so kind as to look at all the other DHS threads that can be found easily on the first pages of this sub-forum? We don't need multiple threads for the same topic.

http://mwomercs.com/...patch-feedback/

Thank you!

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Flapdrol]

Cost is irrelevant, there shouldn't be straight up upgrades, everything should have a downside.

As for the 1.4 value I agree it's too low, only real reason to run it now is saving a bit of weight and putting a bigger engine (with more heatsink slots) in.

[Khardis]

From what i read in the command chair post the concern was that DHS made certain builds DPS raise exponentially.

However, (at least in my clan) we never noticed this. I've never seen, and I bet a lot of other players too, have seen laser boating being abused it was a challenging build and still required heat management.

My concern is that changing both lasers and DHS shift too many variables and wont give you accurate data as to whether DHS were actually OP. I say keep lasers working as intended and return DHS or perhaps step it down a little more slightly like 1.7 atm they just don't seem to be worth it and with lasers changed as well it seems like it would be difficult to get a realistic measure of the balance of energy based builds.

[Egomane]

Please see all the other DHS threads for more information. Thank you!

http://mwomercs.com/...patch-feedback/

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

I tend to agree.

I think that if there is a problem with laser-boats, then the answer is that lasers need to be fixed, not that DHSs need to be nerfed. I'm finding it's more effective to nerf my own DPS in my fits by fitting singles than it is to mount an advanced piece of equipment that is supposed to give me better performance.

And that's just not how it's supposed to work.

[Miken]

Devs need repair whole heat system at first, make linear dependence between amount of HS and heat efficiency, and then make DHS=2xHS. Players should be easy to calculate the amount of required HS. Also, devs need to continue to stick to the canon within limits of course

[Josh Davion]

Totally agree. Double Heatsinks should be AT LEAST 1.7. 1.4 Heat dissipation for 3 crits is WAY too small to justify using them in anything but light mechs. Once Clan tech hits they will be unusable do to the increased heat generation and the sub-par heat dissipation. PGI, please increase the heat efficiency of DHS to at least 1.7.

[Dal Gurak]

Atheus, on 08 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

You'll have higher DPS with just 2 and add another DHS. That's the silly thing about ER PPC's right now. It's literally not possible to have enough cooling to run more than 1 at full output on any mech.

I find it rare to see any awesome these days carrying any erppcs for this exact problem. The 9M comes with DHSs as standard but the problem I find is you just dont have the critical slots available to make them work. Also firing your erppcs generates so much heat you have a long wait for cool down to be able to think of firing your other weapons.

[Aratan Aenor]

If each player would only move and fire for 10 seconds, then stop and wait as the other players have their own 10 second turns, we would not have heat issues.

Edited by Aratan Aenor, 08 November 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Marukeru]

Thank you for the quick replies.
I went ahead and did the upgrade. Engine turned out fine, but, it not only removed the 3 heatsinks I had left on my mech, but removed one extra. I ended up with 9 heatsinks and I couldn't launch the mech as I didn't have enough CBills to buy a DHS.

Had to run a trial for a match to get enough to grab some DHS for the AWS.

Thank you for the help again

[SilverlightPony]

Marukeru, on 08 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

but, it not only removed the 3 heatsinks I had left on my mech, but removed one extra.

This is intentional. Converting your 'Mech from normal to DHS, or vice-versa, strips all non-engine-integrated heatsinks off the 'Mech, because they figure you'll probably want a different amount, and maybe in different locations. You could probably have sold the stripped single heatsinks from your inventory to get that last DHS, but running a match in a trial to get the money works too.

[Calmon]

I assume it was not in the hotfix. Please fix it as soon as possible.

[TostitoBandito]

http://mwomercs.com/...-effectiveness/

See thread above. Double Heatsinks (DHS) which come in the engine (not those slotted into the engine or the mech) are functioning as true DHS with a dissipation value of 2.0. All other heatsinks, those in the mech chassis or in available engine slots function at the 1.4 dissipation value as per the patch notes.

Preliminary feedback from PGI that someone posted in this thread indicated that this was deliberate. In any case, this needs to be announced officially by PGI immediately and they need to make known whether this will be corrected or whether this is going to stay.

For the record, I think this is good for game balance, but it is also completely contradictory to the patch notes which say clearly that all DHS have a dissipation value of 1.4.

[h00n]

I noticed, and it is delicious.

[Like a Sir]

TostitoBandito, on 08 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...-effectiveness/

See thread above. Double Heatsinks (DHS) which come in the engine (not those slotted into the engine or the mech) are functioning as true DHS with a dissipation value of 2.0. All other heatsinks, those in the mech chassis or in available engine slots function at the 1.4 dissipation value as per the patch notes.

Preliminary feedback from PGI that someone posted in this thread indicated that this was deliberate. In any case, this needs to be announced officially by PGI immediately and they need to make known whether this will be corrected or whether this is going to stay.

For the record, I think this is good for game balance, but it is also completely contradictory to the patch notes which say clearly that all DHS have a dissipation value of 1.4.

It probably wasn't intentional and they are trying to save face.

Now if you think about it, the jenners are still not corring out the atlas in 3 seconds, even though most of their doubles are in the engine, and 4 max on the outside. So if 4 outside were 2.0 instead of 1.4, they would only gain 2.4 heat efficiency...

With that being said, lights and mediums still benefit the most from this, so can we just cut the BS and make them 2.0 across the board, so heavys and assaults that can pack 10-12 doubles outside the engine, will get a big buff as well... Or if PGI was really trying to avoid laser boating that insta killed everyone, make the engine heat sinks 1.4 (or whatever numbers) and the outside ones 2.0... Seems like it would make more sense, in trying to achieve what they say they are trying to achieve.

Oh yeah, also saw a much feared swayback last night running doubles and 2 large lasers in addition to the standard layout, he still overheated hilariously fast.

[Stingz]

I really like the Engine DHS update, make Larger weapons viable.
Especially (ER)PPCs, so fun to fire without ridiculous overheat problems.

Edited by Stingz, 08 November 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[Atheus]

Stingz, on 08 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I really like the Engine DHS update, make Larger weapons viable.
Especially (ER)PPCs, so fun to fire without ridiculous overheat problems.

Initially I thought so too, and put a pair of ER PPC's on my CPLT-K2 to run around sniping, but eventually found that using 2x ER Large Lasers, 2x Medium Lasers, 1 more DHS, and 1 extra ton of armor on the legs wound up yielding much higher damage (much easier to hit, fire rate not limited by heat). Plus, the number of shots you fire more than 675m are relatively few in the course of a match. It seems to me the ER PPC is still as useful as a lead lifevest.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I just wanted to add that I've been running a Jenner with 2 sl and 2 srm4s. I upgraded to DHS after the patch and was able to put another 2 sls on the mech, but only barely. It still runs pretty hot, especially when I'm running flat out and firing both the lasers and the missiles. I've got the 10 engine heat sinks, plus iirc 2 more (I'm rolling with a big xl so I fit those in the extra engine slots).

True DHS in the engine go a long way toward making lights have actual damage output, but since the fact remains that every weapon fires roughly three times faster than in the tabletop while heat sinks dissipate heat at the same rate, heat management is and will remain an important part of combat. I see no loss of this necessary skill even if true DHS were implemented across the board, and in fact it would probably go a goodly bit of the way toward making the ERLL viable outside of certain specialized builds and the PPC and ERPPC useable at all.

Really, lights aren't going to be the issue. Assaults won't be the issue. The potential problems would most likely lie in the medium and heavy ranges (Swayback, I'm looking at you). Even there, it'd be most likely simply to make it possible to take something other than a bunch of small lasers.

Swaybacks should be able to use mediums without killing themselves or crippling their dps, just as Awesomes should be able to make some use of the PPCs/ERPPCs that they are supposed to come with. If ml spam takes over again (it was super big a while back before mls got nerfed a bit), then tweak the ml. Don't punish every other weapon in the game (except Gauss, since it is exempt from heat management) for potential problems with the ml.

[buckX]

I'm not even worried about medium laser spam, to be honest. Yes, they're a super light weapon, but dps-wise, they really aren't that shocking. They put out 1 dps a piece at medium range. A pair of AC2s will put out as much dps as a swayback totally kitted out in mediums, and have much longer range while doing it. Yes, ballistics have accuracy/lag issues, but I have to assume that's something that PGI intends to address, rather than being a chosen aspect of balance. Medium lasers are the bread and butter of battletech. I have no problem with them being more popular than smalls.
As far as PPCs and ERPPCs, I've always held that they need some love. PPCs probably need the minimum range removed like gauss, and ERPPCs are just a little too hot to be viable. I also think you could have some fun with how optimal ranges work. A lot of simplifications for the TT aren't necessary when you have a computer running the numbers. If you made damage start degrading immediately, I think long range weapons would be viewed a lot more favorably. Right now, an ERLL is straight up worse than a LL until you're getting more than half a kilometer away, which is not where most of your shooting happens. ERPPCs are buying way too much range. If you reworked things to make a steady drop to 75% at optimal, then a steeper drop after that, then the range where long range weapons make sense draws in a lot further.
The price of range is steep, because it was highly valuable in the TT. With extensive cover, range is worth much less. Since all the large energy weapons pay for a lot of range, they need some help, and the easiest step is to make range "cost" less.

Edited by buckX, 08 November 2012 - 10:28 PM.