1392 replies to this topic

[Justin Xang Allard]

Love the game. But lights are way over powered.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AvatarofWhat, on 14 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I agree there needs to be a tonnage based matchmaking system. However you can't say that the CN9-D matches a jenners speed. Even with the 390 XL it still wont reach the same speed as a maxed out jenner and have barelly any space left for weapons. Also it wont have jump jets. Like I said scouting need not be the only reason for light mechs and we will have to agree to disagree on how effective a light mech can be in a non-lag environment if using cover to its full advantage. At the very least right now they need to bring back collisions. Also if you think a slow heavy mech can do the same job as a scout by simply holding back you are seriously mistaken. That mech will not be able to bring its firepower to bear against the enemy team because it wont be able to reach them as fast. Once again if the maps were all open fields your point would have merit but the time it would take for a heavy going 70 to cross a hill, move past building etc, vs the time it would take a jenner going 150 to do the same helps balance how much firepower each mech can lay down over time on the enemy team.

MW4 was actually proof of this, whatever your complaints about MP3 or any of the mekpaks and the unbalance, scouting was dead, why take a scout mech that suffers from lack of firepower when a mech twice its tonnage can do almost the exact same role, with better firepower? Even in tonnage based systems there was no reason to take a light mech because the advantage of speed or speed-induced lag was often negated by the use of the green lasers of death. Now this doesn't mean that you should neglect speed, but there were some obvious sweet spots involved and the medium class chassis' had it.

Add to that, the map sizes are way too small currently, that yes, I can take a medium speed build and effectively spot/scout for what I really need, were it not for lag, more medium mechs would be > light mechs.

As for the CN9-D, the only reason it is lackluster, is its hardpoints, were it to have the same as the Lunchback, you would see it much more than the Jenner, just like days past. Even if it doesn't have MAX speed, it is damn close enough, and when combined with extra firepower, armor, and the ever-present lag shield, it would threaten the use of a Jenner.

Tonnage range obviously do have an effect on this, but if teams are actually restricted to certain sizes, generally the heavier the mech a person can fit into the team, the better. So no light 24-man swarms against an 8-man assault team. Even in this game, truly skilled Light pilots are rarer than good Gaussapults, so Gaussapults are generally more beneficial than light mechs.

[Opus]

[AvatarofWhat]

majora incarnate, on 14 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

MW4 was actually proof of this, whatever your complaints about MP3 or any of the mekpaks and the unbalance, scouting was dead, why take a scout mech that suffers from lack of firepower when a mech twice its tonnage can do almost the exact same role, with better firepower? Even in tonnage based systems there was no reason to take a light mech because the advantage of speed or speed-induced lag was often negated by the use of the green lasers of death. Now this doesn't mean that you should neglect speed, but there were some obvious sweet spots involved and the medium class chassis' had it.

Add to that, the map sizes are way too small currently, that yes, I can take a medium speed build and effectively spot/scout for what I really need, were it not for lag, more medium mechs would be > light mechs.

As for the CN9-D, the only reason it is lackluster, is its hardpoints, were it to have the same as the Lunchback, you would see it much more than the Jenner, just like days past. Even if it doesn't have MAX speed, it is damn close enough, and when combined with extra firepower, armor, and the ever-present lag shield, it would threaten the use of a Jenner.

Tonnage range obviously do have an effect on this, but if teams are actually restricted to certain sizes, generally the heavier the mech a person can fit into the team, the better. So no light 24-man swarms against an 8-man assault team. Even in this game, truly skilled Light pilots are rarer than good Gaussapults, so Gaussapults are generally more beneficial than light mechs.

I'm sorry but i disagree with most of what you said. We could argue about it all day but the fact is that most of these are just our opinions. Fast enough is completely subjective as well.

What I do know is this. This game is nothing like MW4 from the cover available on the maps, to the radar system, to even how much faster and responsive(torso twist and such) light mechs are compared to heavier chassis. Comparisons between the 2 are a bit lacking because the systems are so different. As far as a tonnage system, if the enemy team is composed of 8 guys with assault mechs then the matchmaker should try to find an enemy team with 8 assault mechs(or tonnage equivalent). If you fail to find a match too bad, maybe your team should not be running all atlai. Not to mention that right now 8 jenners would tear through 8 atlai like butter.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AvatarofWhat, on 14 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I'm sorry but i disagree with most of what you said. We could argue about it all day but the fact is that most of these are just our opinions. Fast enough is completely subjective as well.

What I do know is this. This game is nothing like MW4 from the cover available on the maps, to the radar system, to even how much faster and responsive(torso twist and such) light mechs are compared to heavier chassis. Comparisons between the 2 are a bit lacking because the systems are so different. As far as a tonnage system, if the enemy team is composed of 8 guys with assault mechs then the matchmaker should try to find an enemy team with 8 assault mechs(or tonnage equivalent). If you fail to find a match too bad, maybe your team should not be running all atlai. Not to mention that right now 8 jenners would tear through 8 atlai like butter.

Looks like comparative speed is not the only thing we disagree on.
Sorry but MW4 is not as different as people make it out to be, while some things function a bit differently and how you play the game as changed slightly (LOS based radar system changing the Electronics Warfare and scouting game for the worse imo), MWO has not introduced anything revolutionary to the franchise as far as gameplay. Cover on the map is also not that unique considering the sheer volume of maps MW4 that exist even now, there were a few that had similar designs, but like many have complained, are simply too small to be truly great maps (except caustic, though it is still small, it is my favorite design wise).

As for 8 Atlases vs 8 Jenners, again a subjective opinion especially when taking into account skill. Now 8 K2s vs 8 Jenner would be a more fair fight as Atlases have never been lords of the battlefield like fluff dictates for at least the past two iterations of the series.

[chewie]

Its nice to see how folks can take an honest non QQ thread and try to make it seem like it is.

The latency and stutter are an issue, PGI are probably aware of it (if not before they are now!! ) and will likely fix it at some point, or near as dam as they can. Some things like player latency will never be cured.

Like many others, I too can't wait for the return of *bump* mechanics meaning that If i'm in my atlas, I don't have to worry about some litttle smeghead in his Jenner clinging to my rear end, or my knee caps, because that's where he's safest.

I have an average ping (for a UK'er of 120ms) and only really have trouble hitting Jenners with Ballistics when leading in close.

Simply because as has been stated, at top speed, you get some weird hits etc. I've fired a passing shot at a Jenner who got behind a building before exploding and dying. My team mate he was heading towards at the time laughed his *** off before asking how I'd managed to kill the Jenner from behind the building. From my point of view, the shot completely missed him and I saw the snow kick up beyond him.

If they can tweak the netcode to somehow allow for the *distorted* hit boxes caused by speeding mechs. Then great, lets hope they do it soon.

Till then

Good Luck
Good Hunting
Have Fun

<S>

[AvatarofWhat]

majora incarnate, on 14 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Looks like comparative speed is not the only thing we disagree on.
Sorry but MW4 is not as different as people make it out to be, while some things function a bit differently and how you play the game as changed slightly (LOS based radar system changing the Electronics Warfare and scouting game for the worse imo), MWO has not introduced anything revolutionary to the franchise as far as gameplay. Cover on the map is also not that unique considering the sheer volume of maps MW4 that exist even now, there were a few that had similar designs, but like many have complained, are simply too small to be truly great maps (except caustic, though it is still small, it is my favorite design wise).

As for 8 Atlases vs 8 Jenners, again a subjective opinion especially when taking into account skill. Now 8 K2s vs 8 Jenner would be a more fair fight as Atlases have never been lords of the battlefield like fluff dictates for at least the past two iterations of the series.

Lol, we really don't agree on anything do we? I don't even think the gauss kitty is that good against light mechs due to their slow torso rotation(since you pretty much have to put an inferior engine in there to even fit two gauss). Also having extensively played both games I simply can't agree with your assessment of the importance of the differences between the two games.

Oh well, since we don't agree, have a good day. Good talking with you sir, your viewpoint is very interesting to me if nothing else.

[Jyi]

Ok, I'm a light pilot and I agree with most of your points. However, I usually play a Raven instead of Jenner, and I think the biggest problem is that Jenners are too good. Of course, the sh*tty netcode is the real culprit, but everything would be easier for now if Jenners were nerfed. Commandos have high speed and small profile, but really weak armor. They can be taken down with some well placed shots or some SSRM or LRM volleys. Ravens don't generally have that much speed and they have a relatively big profile - the stock ones are so bad that they are usually laughed at. But Jenners, they get the best of armor, they have a really small profile, they have jumpjets, they have more speed than Commandos OR Ravens and they get the best weapon slots. And don't give me that "but Ravens have 1 ton more armor than Jenners", because that's bullsh*t, I just checked. Sure, stock Jenners have bad armor, but their maximum is the same as Raven's.

Jenners need a nerf.

Also, don't ever bring back knockdowns. That was a farce! Sure, it might've helped bigger mechs bring down light mechs.. but from the light side of things, it was still a fricking Jennerfest. It was basically Jenners tripping down all other light mechs with their superior speeds and then some Swaybacks sitting on top of those downed lights so they NEVER get up again. Also, thanks to awful netcode, you could pass another mech by a dozen meters and still be knocked down. And playing from Europe with 150+ ping didn't help. There was absolutely no point in playing any light that goes below 100 kph back then and absolutely no point in trying to play a light from Europe AT ALL.

Edited by Jyi, 14 November 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Jock Blaine, on 14 November 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

The fact that you have over 5000 posts is not an excuse. The problem remains that it is yet another thread drowning out those posts that might actually help, and frankly, if you spend so much time on the forum, you should know better. Lastly, if you don't want people to zone in on a posting: don't post it. (And maybe avoid name calling, so we can take your posts more serious)

I have buried you 100-fold in more helpful content on this forum, yet you squeak with the power and ferocity of a mouse at wanting the same level of recognition. On top of it, after calling someone a whiner, you then tell them not to call you a name.

[Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 14 November 2012 - 03:57 PM.
Code of Conduct

[Atayu]

Hello Aegis, been a while have not ran into you in game since early beta like round 3 or so. Anyways do not pay attention to the noob saying you are complaining. Those of us who have been here and have seen how the game has changed agree with you. I have always drove lights quite a bit but right now they are sitting in the mech lab collecting dust, Why you ask well because with knockdowns not in the game and the lag shield they have right now it feels like plain out cheating. I hope this gets fixed soon.

[LadyZowy]

Atayu, on 14 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

... it feels like plain out cheating. I hope this gets fixed soon.

Well said. And I have a feeling that this is a result of the noob brigade that has unleashed its torrent on PGI.

To the Devs at PGI: This isn't a game for the noob's. The noobs weren't bagging on your door's to get into the Beta, we seasoned mech pilots were and right now this nerfing and "adjusting" is just making the game less interesting and less enjoyable.

Since the last patch I've played less and less as these nerfed weapons have totally screwed with my weapons loads, the heat adjustments have messed with standard builds that were manageable in the past but are now unplayable. This has to stop, these issues have to be fixed or you will lose the core players that want to see this game make it.

I've told my friends to stay clear of it after the Nov patches after spending weeks trying to get them into it. Please stick with the plan and make this game a solid and enjoyable play, and stop pandering to the noobs. We were all noobs at one point and having our butts handed to us is what made us better pilots.

[Rutok]

Maybe the problem is trying to balance everything. Maybe there SHOULD be some imbalances in the game. Think about it: the only way to make it truly fair for everybody is only allowing jenner vs. jenner.. with the same loadout.

Trying to help light mechs stand their ground on the small maps with short engagement ranges that we currently have is the root of all those problems.

Everything, lag shield, double armor, no knock downs was implemented to help light mechs survive in an environment where they should be at a disadvantage. If your jenner got caught close up by any assault you where dead (in any other Mechwarrior game). And thats how it should be. Otherwise what is the reason to have heavier mechs?

The answer is not to keep making balance changes. If you equalize everything you end up with a stale, boring game. Thats why you need diversity in Maps. With different maps (and letting players know in advance on which map they will play!) you will see different playstyles, different loadouts.

There are no "imbalances" when you give each mech and each weapon the ability to shine.. and to be crap. An Awesome with 3 ppc SHOULD have a harder time on caustic than a gausscat. Its not a big problem. The Awesome could shine in other map types. When there are more opponents or simply longer engagements and the gausscat starts to run out of ammo.. that will simply not happen on the maps we have now. But imagine fights that go on for half an hour or with 16vs.16 matches.

[IntruderAlert]

I don't see jenners as a problem. While I have been taken out by a few jenners when piloting my assualt mechs, it is usually because I ignored them and they are firing at my rear torso.(As any good light mech would). They are there to confuse and
disrupt the advancing party. I still see a lot of one-shot kills on jenners in the game followed by (OMG WTF??)..
If you are down to the last two mechs in the game with one assault on one jenner , then you have a problem, esp. if the assualt has already taken damage..(and if he hasn't then his own team should probalby back-shotty him in the next drop for not helping).
Most of this is strategy and tactics imo. Assaults are the vanguard and main destructive force in a game.
Imagine a navy carrier group.
A carrier by itself in the open water is a huge target and vulnerable...thats why they always have a support group of destroyers,
subs, and other fighitng classes travelling with them. The same strategy applies here.
Think of the Assault as the carrier, and have your mediums stay with him instead of wandering off to make their own
un-coordinated fight. The lights swarm the enemy, Your mediums defend the assaults and heavies from the enemy lights.
If done correctly, the assaults should almost never even worry about the lights and focus more on the enemy heavies , mediums and assault class mechs. The group should "stick together team" and focus fire on assault targets when the enemy lights are not around and/or being taken care of. Also, while lights often RTB on a home base capture...this is probably better done by a medium when needed as the lights are still needed as a tactical "eyes and ears" for the ranged assaults and heavies.
mediums have the ability to deliver crushing blows to the enemy, but to use them as the main fighting force while the assualts hide in the background is just wrong. Each class has it's own role and purpose for it's existance.
While I DO agree that jenners are harder to kill than before..it is mainly cause I can't imprint their face in the ground with a good foot stomp. :} . I still see many lights (read as "jenners") getting one shot early in the game. And don't see them as a problem.
Just remember that in ANY game that is across the internet...due to ever changing combinations of lag between the server and you, and the server and the enemy,..what you see as the location of the jenner on your screen is always going to be off a little...
it's called lag training...it was a major learning curve in mechwarrior 2 that differentiated a good player form a bad one...and though it is not as prevalent today as it once was "back in the day"..it's still there...and for each shot, each change in distance between you and your target, each twist and turn, and each different target,..it will continuosly change. It is usually not a huge amount, but it does effectively change the outcome. For those that "never had a problem" in other games...well , coding in an "aim-bot" into the game or an oversized hit box, like a lot of console games and modern battle games do, is just not the answer, and not very realistic.
Summary: An atlas should not be fighting a jenner. A jenner Should be trying to get behind an assault or heavy to confuse or turn him. Mediums and heavies should stay with the assault to pick off the fleas from each other and the assault. It's just a matter of teamwork.
As for the SSRMS being nerfed. I fully agree. In my Cat with 6 ssrms I was routinely getting a majority of the kills against any advisary not just jenners. Even now they still chase the jenner off and exact a heavy toll on them..they were way over powered for a "never miss" weapon...just imagine what ssrm 4's would do. Even now they still one or two shot lights and some mediums when fired all at once, and usually inflict an overall outdamaging result when one on one against similar or heavier mechs when chain firing...mainly because they are missing more than I am. I am still happy with ssrms. I have no problems with jenners in my assualt. I DO have a problem with team mates/ players who don't understand their mech's purpose for existing in the game.

This isn't World of OP craft...we can't all be mages.... you will sometimes lose a fight..OMG!! NOOOOOOO!!
-IA

[Elder Thorn]

Aegis Kleais, on 13 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Not today. My frustration has gotten the best of me.

This light mech armor that has been around for AGES now is just getting utterly ridiculous. When a light can confidently take down 4-8x his weight because of lag, stutter, netcode and (currently) the inability to knock him down, I just can't see how something this game altering has yet to be addressed.

We're all allowed to lose faith in the project, knowing all too well that it's a beta, and is 'being addressed', so this may just be my turn to chomp at the bit, but good God Almighty is it infuriating to see these guys, for all practical purposes, be invincible to DEAD-ON hits. I've actually been giving up when a tenacious light comes after me cause it's just futile to even attempt to defeat the things.

*sighs*.

Anyways I'm just irked.... the game's still on the right track for being the best MW game ever.... I just hope that this issue gets less time on the back burner than it currently is getting.

i feel ya man. got a cicada chewing through me for ages, taking gaus shells and Volleys of SRMs to the face with no effect. By the time i manages to destroy one of his legs, he nailed my CT. I would be ok with this, if he was actually piloting good, but the way he moved arround me was totally predictable, the hitbox movement was not.

Not blaming those people, but most of them will really have a bad time after hitbox got fixed, same as collisions... they just abuse those 2 broken things and you can't do anyhting about it, and they don't get better at the actual playstyle, which would be the best... the way we have it now, they will need to learn everything from scratch when stuff is patched... if it gets patched

[Aegis Kleais]

Atayu, on 14 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Hello Aegis, been a while have not ran into you in game since early beta like round 3 or so. Anyways do not pay attention to the noob saying you are complaining. Those of us who have been here and have seen how the game has changed agree with you. I have always drove lights quite a bit but right now they are sitting in the mech lab collecting dust, Why you ask well because with knockdowns not in the game and the lag shield they have right now it feels like plain out cheating. I hope this gets fixed soon.

I'm always fine with someone having an opinion that differs from mine; but when you start calling people names because of it (and then not like it when people call you names back), well.... that kinda speaks for itself.

Undoubtedly, PGI is moving the game in the right direction. The more things they add, the happier I am. This problem with lights/netcode has been around for a long time, and has only recently begun to irk me. I don't blame any light pilot for playing Lights during this golden age (best way to pad those stats!) I just share in the frustration of those who feel like they're banging their head against a very thick wall. We're just not seeing very much progress towards a fix it seems.

And yeah, where the heck have you been? Haven't seen you in many games

[Raeven]

Make them taller. Fixed.

[Sprouticus]

Best solution:

reduce speed based upon % heat. It has a basis in TT, and hurts light a HECK of a lot more than other mechs.

Edited by Sprouticus, 14 November 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AvatarofWhat, on 14 November 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Lol, we really don't agree on anything do we? I don't even think the gauss kitty is that good against light mechs due to their slow torso rotation(since you pretty much have to put an inferior engine in there to even fit two gauss). Also having extensively played both games I simply can't agree with your assessment of the importance of the differences between the two games.

Oh well, since we don't agree, have a good day. Good talking with you sir, your viewpoint is very interesting to me if nothing else.

Same to you, interesting how two people can actually have a civil discussion and agree to disagree in the end without regressing to name calling or just repeating ourselves over and over again isn't it?

[Taron]

OK, ich bin echt voll sauer, daher auf Deutsch, ich bitte darum, das auf Englisch zu übersetzen:

Es gibt einfach noch zu viele technische Probleme in diesem Spiel, Probleme, die man in einer Closed Beta noch erwarten kann, aber wirklich nicht mehr in einer Open Beta.

Alle paar Spiele kracht man runter auf den Desktop, und wenn das nicht passiert, erwischt einen der FPS-Breakdown. Und selbst, wenn keines von beiden geschieht, können noch 2 andere, echt heftige Bugs auftreten:

Der erste ist, dass eine Map völlig zusammenbricht, dann geht NICHTS mehr, und man hat nur noch Rubberbanding.

Der zweite ist, dass einem der Client Treffer anzeigt, der Gegner aber keinerlei Schaden abbekommt.

Sorry, aber ich hoffe, der 20. November ist wirklich NICHT der Release-Tag - von einer Release-Version st das Spiel noch meilenweit entfernt.


(Sorry for the german language, but i'm really a bit pissed ....., feel free to translate, please)

[Chuckie]

Raeven, on 14 November 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Make them taller. Fixed.

Ah.. no.. Light mechs should be smaller.. a Commando should not look eyet to eye with an Atlas.. that would just be wrong.

Aegis Kleais, on 14 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Undoubtedly, PGI is moving the game in the right direction. The more things they add, the happier I am. This problem with lights/netcode has been around for a long time, and has only recently begun to irk me. I don't blame any light pilot for playing Lights during this golden age (best way to pad those stats!) I just share in the frustration of those who feel like they're banging their head against a very thick wall. We're just not seeing very much progress towards a fix it seems.

I agree is does seem like progression towards fixes recently makes a few steps back when they make one forward.

That said, I think they have had lights good a couple of times. Right before they nerfed tackling. BTW I say that, but god I hated when dragons and jenners would go around and tackle my Commando.. Didn't like it but it was at least understandable and seemed to bring a bit of balance to the light mechs.

I will say the slowing the mechs down as a percentage of their heat idea someone floated, does make a bit of sense and should be easy enough to implement. That and collisions should be almost enough to balance.

That said, as for padding stats.. I never did that with my 3 SSRM Commando.. or my dual LRM20 Awesome with ART (Post patch - Pre LRM Nerf). Because that would be wrong..

majora incarnate, on 14 November 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

interesting how two people can actually have a civil discussion and agree to disagree in the end without regressing to name calling or just repeating ourselves over and over again isn't it?

Uhh uhh.. and BTW your a Buthead