576 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Yeah you don't want them in anything other than a light mech and not have upgrades. Let me guess you want to stomp them into the ground in your uber death machine that they have no hope of ever competing against.



Sandpit and LogicSol think that you're making too money as a free player. They want you to spend several months before you can progress to your next variant or getting your first mech. Fortunately, the majority of the player base sees that this is a problem and agrees with you and I. Have hope.

Again your personal attacks and snarky rmarks still make me chuckle sir
I applaud your wonderful sense of humor
You might want to stick to on-topic though

You yourself just showed where a new free player can sustain a heavy mech (The catapult example you threw out earlier)
That shows they can into MUCH heavier than a light mech. I want to see new players in whatever weight class they have fun piloting. According to your math they are able to do that in the economy now. Bashing me and calling me names doesn't change that. Unfortunately it also doesn't change the fact that the economy isn't what causes new players to get stuck in a cycle of being broke.
Having them get experience before being dropped into the shark tank and earn a few c-bills to get them started will. That's how you get them to enjoy the game. Simply handing them an extra 20k after a match solves nothing.

[KhanCipher]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

That's my point though. I want to see the game get new guy friendly. Giving them more money after a match doesn't solve the issue though.

which is why my suggestion is to atleast make it so they never gain less than what they would in a trial, making it so the only thing to worry about when using a mech you bought yourself is the initia cost of it and the upgrades/customizations you'll put into it.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Again your personal attacks and snarky rmarks still make me chuckle sir
I applaud your wonderful sense of humor
You might want to stick to on-topic though

You yourself just showed where a new free player can sustain a heavy mech (The catapult example you threw out earlier)
That shows they can into MUCH heavier than a light mech. I want to see new players in whatever weight class they have fun piloting. According to your math they are able to do that in the economy now. Bashing me and calling me names doesn't change that. Unfortunately it also doesn't change the fact that the economy isn't what causes new players to get stuck in a cycle of being broke.
Having them get experience before being dropped into the shark tank and earn a few c-bills to get them started will. That's how you get them to enjoy the game. Simply handing them an extra 20k after a match solves nothing.

Changing the topic again and putting words into my mouth.

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Cure for a mountain of c-bills: buying MC for mech bays and get more mechs. This earns PGI money. Your way doesn't generate money for PGI and that does hurt PGI's bottom line. Right now the game is not friendly to free players nor do those players want to stick around much less spend money. Naw, you'd rather the free players to be in trial mechs so you can roflstomp them into the ground in your uber death machine.

Again attacking me and calling me names solves nothing sir
The mountain of c-bills has nothing to do with MC at all. A player will find the occasional loss and loss of C-bills to be negligible which results in stagnation in general. It continues the game further down the path of seeing 2-3 different popular builds with 2-3 play styles instead of diversifying the game and keeping all mechs and variants competitive

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Again attacking me and calling me names solves nothing sir
The mountain of c-bills has nothing to do with MC at all. A player will find the occasional loss and loss of C-bills to be negligible which results in stagnation in general. It continues the game further down the path of seeing 2-3 different popular builds with 2-3 play styles instead of diversifying the game and keeping all mechs and variants competitive

I never called you anything, so no you'd be wrong on that one.

I just pointed it out that it did. If I had the c-bills I'd buy as many mechs as I can. This means I would have to spend money to buy more mech bays. Oh look revenue for PGI. Logic escapes you and I'm laughing at your antics.

[Lyteros]

For everyone intrested how it changes your income and how big the difference between founder and freebie is, I've already put up a rather big post with cross analysis here:
http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1336285

[RaidSoft]

Personally I have no investment in the MW universe, I look at this as a game that is in direct competition for my time with other f2p titles out there and MWO in it's current state is extremely underwhelming, it's extremely sad that the game rewards people for taking the fastest trial mech and run in and die as fast as possible, quit the match and take the second fastest mech and repeat ad infinitum.

This is not fun but it's the most efficient way of gaining money with the game set up like this, it doesn't encourage you to play safe and take it slow in matches when you are in a trial mech because there is no sense of risk, it doesn't matter if you die after 15 seconds because you just quit and jump into the next one anyway...

The game's economy should give incentives to do well in matches and at least when it comes to trial mechs it does exactly the opposite. If the fastest way of getting currency is doing that then a LOT of people will and this will end up with a lot of ruined games because you get suiciders that are farming the money needed for their big shiny mechs.

I have no idea what the solution is but I know that it's extremely off putting and demoralizing once you figure this out and makes you wonder why you are even playing.

[Katakis]

Quote

The economy doesn't reward players who play badly but manage to eek out a win. The economy doesn't reward players who play loose with expensive goodies.
The economy rewards players who play well, manage resources, and balance what mechs they use and when.

That's turning the situation on the head. The economy PUNISHES the first two, not rewards the last one. That's wrong for F2P business.

Quote

A player will find the occasional loss and loss of C-bills to be negligible which results in stagnation in general.

The world isn't black and white. The alternative to lose money is not earn too much money. Is this a difficult concept to grasp?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Lyteros, on 06 November 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

For everyone intrested how it changes your income and how big the difference between founder and freebie is, I've already put up a rather big post with cross analysis here:
http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1336285

Thank you Lyteros for posting your reply. Cold hard facts trumps emotional rhetoric any day.

[Sandpit]

RaidSoft, on 06 November 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Personally I have no investment in the MW universe, I look at this as a game that is in direct competition for my time with other f2p titles out there and MWO in it's current state is extremely underwhelming, it's extremely sad that the game rewards people for taking the fastest trial mech and run in and die as fast as possible, quit the match and take the second fastest mech and repeat ad infinitum.

This is not fun but it's the most efficient way of gaining money with the game set up like this, it doesn't encourage you to play safe and take it slow in matches when you are in a trial mech because there is no sense of risk, it doesn't matter if you die after 15 seconds because you just quit and jump into the next one anyway...

The game's economy should give incentives to do well in matches and at least when it comes to trial mechs it does exactly the opposite. If the fastest way of getting currency is doing that then a LOT of people will and this will end up with a lot of ruined games because you get suiciders that are farming the money needed for their big shiny mechs.

I have no idea what the solution is but I know that it's extremely off putting and demoralizing once you figure this out and makes you wonder why you are even playing.

As a new player do you think having a training company and a better tutorial system in place before jumping into games with experienced players would help? If the company were to make sure you got your feet wet with other trainees and gave you a few million c-bills would it make the initial grind a little more bearable?

[Sandpit]

Lyteros, on 06 November 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

For everyone intrested how it changes your income and how big the difference between founder and freebie is, I've already put up a rather big post with cross analysis here:
http://mwomercs.com/...85#entry1336285

I love your post. I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas on revising the MM system to a more skill based system as I think this is honestly what results in the stomps and new players getting frustrated with the game. I still don't think the economy needs a fix really. The only concession I could see in that regards is maybe adjusting the price of a few items down here and there as I think they are a bit pricey. That makes them more accessible at an earlier rate but still forces players to play smart with what upgrades they take, what mechs they use, and make sure they have a "cheap" mech build to help sustain money once in a while.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

I love your post. I agree wholeheartedly with your ideas on revising the MM system to a more skill based system as I think this is honestly what results in the stomps and new players getting frustrated with the game. I still don't think the economy needs a fix really. The only concession I could see in that regards is maybe adjusting the price of a few items down here and there as I think they are a bit pricey. That makes them more accessible at an earlier rate but still forces players to play smart with what upgrades they take, what mechs they use, and make sure they have a "cheap" mech build to help sustain money once in a while.

You've stated your opinion that the economy doesn't need fixing, so stop thread crapping this thread and blocking constructive discussion among free players about why they think the economy is broken.

Start your own thread about your ideas on the economy and ask your questions.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[RaidSoft]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

As a new player do you think having a training company and a better tutorial system in place before jumping into games with experienced players would help? If the company were to make sure you got your feet wet with other trainees and gave you a few million c-bills would it make the initial grind a little more bearable?

Yes it would help, especially separating veterans and newbies (and from what I've understood matchmaking improvements are already coming otherwise I wouldn't even be on this forum right now) but there's a weird disconnect between the trial mechs and regular ones. Basically you run your trial mechs completely maintenance/risk free so even though you might really want your own mech that you can start customizing having that entry barrier (initial grinding to buy it and risk that you aren't sure you will enjoy it since you can only try a few trial models before making a purchse) feels like you need to climb a mountain before you will get a few cookie crumbs.

The game doesn't actually say anything at all regarding the whole repair/rearm costs for when you get your first mech either so you are in for a rude awakening when you get it unless you are already knowledgeable about the universe (which most random players won't be) and it doesn't explain that the more heavy classes or certain fittings might not be viable as a "main" mech because you will most likely lose money from using them...

Not taking the lore/universe into account but from a pure gameplay perspective it's REALLY weird that you would come in and play a game and lose money from winning a game since it does not give you a sense of progression (not all games need progression but this game makes it seem like it's Heavily progression based at least from initial impressions)

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

You've stated your opinion that the economy doesn't need fixing, so stop thread crapping this thread and blocking constructive discussion among free players about why they think the economy is broken.

I'm not doing anything but responding to posters just like you. I'll post as I see fit but thank you for the kind advice
You're more than welcome to hit the report button over there if you feel I'm violating the CoC

One more idea that might help new players make it in this economy is to have a system where they take specific missions only available to them. Many F2P games use something similar in that these players are "protected" from others for a short time when they start the game or for a certain amount of missions. This would also help them get a little money in the bank and help reduce an initial grind which hopefully would hook them into the core gameplay. This would help lessen the sting of losing some c-bills here and there as well when they do upgrade to the "nicer" stuff for mechs

[Sandpit]

RaidSoft, on 06 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Yes it would help, especially separating veterans and newbies (and from what I've understood matchmaking improvements are already coming otherwise I wouldn't even be on this forum right now) but there's a weird disconnect between the trial mechs and regular ones. Basically you run your trial mechs completely maintenance/risk free so even though you might really want your own mech that you can start customizing having that entry barrier (initial grinding to buy it and risk that you aren't sure you will enjoy it since you can only try a few trial models before making a purchse) feels like you need to climb a mountain before you will get a few cookie crumbs.

The game doesn't actually say anything at all regarding the whole repair/rearm costs for when you get your first mech either so you are in for a rude awakening when you get it unless you are already knowledgeable about the universe (which most random players won't be) and it doesn't explain that the more heavy classes or certain fittings might not be viable as a "main" mech because you will most likely lose money from using them...

Not taking the lore/universe into account but from a pure gameplay perspective it's REALLY weird that you would come in and play a game and lose money from winning a game since it does not give you a sense of progression (not all games need progression but this game makes it seem like it's Heavily progression based at least from initial impressions)

I agree. Right now players are thrown into the game and all of the intricacies of BTech lore without having any kind of information really given to them. It's nice to get the opinion of a new player who isnt' a BTech player. Do you think the mechlab showing and explaining things would help make wiser decisions about when and what to upgrade so you don't get "upside down" in a mech due to the extra cost in stuff like DHS and endo steel, etc.?
Even though I doubt he will admit it, James and I just have different views on how to breach the gap for new players and make it more enjoyable from the get go so they have fun and get hooked, we just have different ideas on how to do it. Instead of changing the economy I honestly think easing them in and making them more well-informed about the economy is a better solution

[James The Fox Dixon]

Fortunately, about 30 people, founders and free players, agree that the economy needs fixing and disagrees with Sandpit. They understand the long term problems the economy has and how it affects PGI's bottom line.

[Dakkss]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

But I think that's a good thing to an extent. It forces you to keep a couple of "cheap" mechs around to put into your play rotation once in a while.
Here's the thing. Right now we're all pretty much grinding and earning some cash. hardcore players are probably all sitting on top of a mountain at this point anyhow.
Once you've established a nice little bankroll that expensive mech losing you 50k in a game doesn't hurt. If you have 20 million c-bills losing a few k once in a while isn't going to affect you. BUT, you had to grind a little here and there use some less optimized builds on occasion to get there. It isn't going to hurt the economy that not everyone can pilot the most expensive stuff all the time every match.

Yes, to an extent - but to many people, including myself, the rewards are so insignificant for winning that it's taking just a tad (Note that I said 'just a tad') long to make decent profit. End of match rewards should definitely be raised by 25k-50k to make it a bit more bearable. I've got Premium time and I think it's taking too long, I'd hate to think about the freebies. I agree with James in that rewards should be scaled up in comparison to the mech you're running.

I also do not see the point in running 'upgraded' builds because DHS, and Ferro-Fibrous are fairly useless, especially when they cause you to lose money. This is were I think balancing is not useful - if 'upgrades' are only slightly better, if at all, than 'regular,' no one is going to bother.

[LogicSol]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Your numbers are off. If a f2p player in a K2 has a repair bill of 100k and makes only 130k in a match they will make 30k just like I used in my example. They will not make as much as you say they will. Anyone can see that math error and laugh at it, which is what I'm doing now.

My numbers are right on.
It's only 100k if you die. Don't die and win, bam 100k profit if your re-arm plus repair is 50k(pretty common amount when i won). More than you will ever make in a trial. 150k is average win amount, a free player can make as much as 220k in a match if they play smart and maximize salvage.

The only math error here is that you continually take the worst case scenario and apply it every time.

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Also, the 75% rearm means that if you do not have enough ammo in the build to begin with you will run out quickly in a match. This will diminish your earnings even further because of less damage done, kill assists, and kills which affects your bonus rewards. Not exactly working out in your favor now is it?

Kills get you 2k. 1000 damage gets you 10k, assists get you 2k.
If you do 750 damage instead of 1000 because you only have 75% ammo you'll lose 2.5k from damage, likely nothing from assists and a kill or two. Lets call that 10k less gross for the hell of it.
How much is your re-arm bill with 10 tons of LRM ammo? Oh more than 10k you say? hmmm.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Dak Darklighter, on 06 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Yes, to an extent - but to many people, including myself, the rewards are so insignificant for winning that it's taking just a tad (Note that I said 'just a tad') long to make decent profit. End of match rewards should definitely be raised by 25k-50k to make it a bit more bearable. I've got Premium time and I think it's taking too long, I'd hate to think about the freebies. I agree with James in that rewards should be scaled up in comparison to the mech you're running.

I also do not see the point in running 'upgraded' builds because DHS, and Ferro-Fibrous are fairly useless, especially when they cause you to lose money. This is were I think balancing is not useful - if 'upgrades' are only slightly better, if at all, than 'regular,' no one is going to bother.

That's the problem with the current economics. It doesn't scale and punishes free players. I stopped playing the game mainly because it's taken me four days to earn 4.5m c-bills and the grind has gotten to me. I am burnt out from not earning enough money to complete my elites by buying my third Cat variant. I played Anarchy Online and MW:O's grind is making that one look like a cakewalk. 200+ levels plus AAs looks easier than making 5.8m for a third Cat variant. 15 days to earn enough money for a third variant is too long. Sad isn't it?

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[RaidSoft]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I agree. Right now players are thrown into the game and all of the intricacies of BTech lore without having any kind of information really given to them. It's nice to get the opinion of a new player who isnt' a BTech player. Do you think the mechlab showing and explaining things would help make wiser decisions about when and what to upgrade so you don't get "upside down" in a mech due to the extra cost in stuff like DHS and endo steel, etc.?
Even though I doubt he will admit it, James and I just have different views on how to breach the gap for new players and make it more enjoyable from the get go so they have fun and get hooked, we just have different ideas on how to do it. Instead of changing the economy I honestly think easing them in and making them more well-informed about the economy is a better solution

First off, this might be considered relatively off-topic however it's at least fairly relevant since the economy IS involved in this, sorry if I stray a bit too much away from the topic at hand but I think it's relevant at least.

I don't have enough experience to have formed any opinion on what would be best solution personally but I know for a fact that the game does NOT give incentives for new players (at least this is the case with me and 3 of my friends that have tried MWO so far) to stick around and get invested/involved in the whole MW universe. Having explanations available to you if you want them would be an improvement (should be accessible in-game somehow) however it should NOT be required since everyone play games differently and having lots and lots of information shoved in your face up front can be a MASSIVE turn-off.

Best way is probably to first introduce what you really NEED to know and then over time introduce more and more mechanics and going more and more in-depth as you get accustomed with the game. For example if it's their intention that you should rarely see the heavier classes or certain equipment then it should be obvious that such is the case, right now it doesn't really give much class distinction at all since you can actually play the heaviest class for "free" in a trial mech and thus they will be quite common and considered "ordinary" by new players that don't understand the difference from the lore.