576 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Hey, so there are literally dozens of mech builds that cost in the 30-70k range to repair.
If you run those as your main mech, you will never lose money, and can save up a buffer to run the more expensive assaults and missile-boats.

If you want worry free running of all mech builds, then go premium. Seriously, it's there so you have an option that doesn't involve investing grind time just to keep up your favorite build.

I tend to agree with this as well. There are plenty of mech builds and options that will earn you money. Just because you can't afford to run the most expensive exclusively and singularly doesn't make them unusable to a free or new player. It means you'll also have to use cheaper stuff as well.
yes I'm a founder and yes I get 25% bonus due to premium time at the moment but that runs out (and is also freely available to everyone). It's an incentive to actually do things like spend money on premium in my opinion.
There are very limited options on what PGI can make money on currently. This might change in the future but at the moment that's the bare bones of it. As that changes then so might others as far as economy but I still stand by the first part of my post here

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, you should read my suggestion thread as it explains how the scaling would work.

Premium and founders are already swimming in cash now, so the new system wouldn't help them as much. They'd just be able to afford newer mechs a lot faster than free players.

It all comes down to income must meet or exceed the price of items. Since MW:O has a limited inventory of items that are priced too high to buy, initial purchase, and maintain then no one will spend money on the game. Now in BattleTech the better the equipment means the better the payout for merc contracts. It's part of a merc's Dragoon's Rating. The Dragoon's Rating also encompasses mech tonnage, technology used, mechwarrior quality, and other options that will help determine the base fee a mechwarrior charges for a contract. The current system does not do this. One size fits all solutions to an economy, real and fictional, do not work. Economies follow a natural cycle of supply and demand, income vs. expenses, etc... The current system does not take into account the cost of items and is delinked from the earnings. Both income and item prices are linked.

[James The Fox Dixon]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Hey, so there are literally dozens of mech builds that cost in the 30-70k range to repair.
If you run those as your main mech, you will never lose money, and can save up a buffer to run the more expensive assaults and missile-boats.

If you want worry free running of all mech builds, then go premium. Seriously, it's there so you have an option that doesn't involve investing grind time just to keep up your favorite build.

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I tend to agree with this as well. There are plenty of mech builds and options that will earn you money. Just because you can't afford to run the most expensive exclusively and singularly doesn't make them unusable to a free or new player. It means you'll also have to use cheaper stuff as well.
yes I'm a founder and yes I get 25% bonus due to premium time at the moment but that runs out (and is also freely available to everyone). It's an incentive to actually do things like spend money on premium in my opinion.
There are very limited options on what PGI can make money on currently. This might change in the future but at the moment that's the bare bones of it. As that changes then so might others as far as economy but I still stand by the first part of my post here

First, you are suggesting to go against what PGI has promised when it came to role warfare and that it applies to all players. Secondly, all mechs should be viable economically in a closed economic system which MW:O does not. Given the current state of economic affairs, both of you have been told by free players in this thread that it doesn't work and it will cause them to not spend money on the game. As such, I'm not going to reply to either of you unless you tackle the issue head on in a way that reinforces players to actually want to play the game and to spend money on the game while seeing the issue through a free player's perspective. Both of you failed to do that since you are both founders and have freemium time.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Quxudica]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I tend to agree with this as well. There are plenty of mech builds and options that will earn you money. Just because you can't afford to run the most expensive exclusively and singularly doesn't make them unusable to a free or new player. It means you'll also have to use cheaper stuff as well.
yes I'm a founder and yes I get 25% bonus due to premium time at the moment but that runs out (and is also freely available to everyone). It's an incentive to actually do things like spend money on premium in my opinion.
There are very limited options on what PGI can make money on currently. This might change in the future but at the moment that's the bare bones of it. As that changes then so might others as far as economy but I still stand by the first part of my post here

Economically cutting off or otherwise restricting access to the player base of any equipment or gear cheapens if not flat invalidates the game as a competition. It artificially skews the odds of winning in favor of those that can afford the best toys, yes this is how the real world works.. this is not the real world, this is a game meant to be enjoyed as friendly competition.

True competition comes when both sides have an equal chance of winning from the outset, the result being determined only by how well the winners played. Right now missile boats are the clear rulers of the field, to the point that you can generally call which side is going to win just based on how many LRMs funnel in toward the scouts in the opening minute or two. These weapons are the most expensive, locking them off from the average player and thus putting those players and their teams at a disadvantage from the start.

I want an even, balanced game every time I launch. I do not want to win or lose just because I or someone else had the funds to bring straight up superior equipment or builds into the match - that is not legitimate competition and not what I play this game for.

[LogicSol]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

First, you are suggesting to go against what PGI has promised when it came to role warfare and that it applies to all players. Secondly, all mechs should be viable economically in a closed economic system which MW:O does not.

No.
On both accounts. PGI never promised that every mech build possible would be economically viable.

Also, you have to be able to lose money, otherwise there is no point in money.

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Sandpit, you should read my suggestion thread as it explains how the scaling would work.

Premium and founders are already swimming in cash now, so the new system wouldn't help them as much. They'd just be able to afford newer mechs a lot faster than free players.

It all comes down to income must meet or exceed the price of items. Since MW:O has a limited inventory of items that are priced too high to buy, initial purchase, and maintain then no one will spend money on the game. Now in BattleTech the better the equipment means the better the payout for merc contracts. It's part of a merc's Dragoon's Rating. The Dragoon's Rating also encompasses mech tonnage, technology used, mechwarrior quality, and other options that will help determine the base fee a mechwarrior charges for a contract. The current system does not do this. One size fits all solutions to an economy, real and fictional, do not work. Economies follow a natural cycle of supply and demand, income vs. expenses, etc... The current system does not take into account the cost of items and is delinked from the earnings. Both income and item prices are linked.

The problem here is that we aren't "mercs" yet. There are no factions, merch corps., planetary contracts, etc.

I did read your post. I'm asking specifically what you wanted scaled.
The merc handbook is for TT. I've run campaigns for merc units using the guidelines and setting up contracts. This isn't going to translate well for the "campaign" they are using here. Not all mechs are going to be viable as a singular payday. Each player doesn't represent a single pilot. Each player represents however many mechs they own personally plus the free trial mechs.
A merc unit will have expensive units that aren't cheap to use and wouldn't pull them out unless it was a mejor conflict. So mech using L2 or even L3 tech wouldn't be pushed out for a minor mission because the repairs wouldn't be cost beneficial over an extended period. It's the same thing here. Each player is essentially their own merc corps. They have to pick and choose when they take those expensive shiny mechs out into battle and know that it isn't cost efficient to run those mechs into the ground repeteadly

[LogicSol]

Quxudica, on 06 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Economically cutting off or otherwise restricting access to the player base of any equipment or gear cheapens if not flat invalidates the game as a competition. It artificially skews the odds of winning in favor of those that can afford the best toys, yes this is how the real world works.. this is not the real world, this is a game meant to be enjoyed as friendly competition.

I have to say, this is meant to be a simulation. Even though it's a light sim, the entire idea is replicating reality.

[Sandpit]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

No.
On both accounts. PGI never promised that every mech build possible would be economically viable.

Also, you have to be able to lose money, otherwise there is no point in money.

This also to an extent. If everyone in your city was handed $500 a week every week then that $500 would lose it's economic value. You have to have people who lose money now and then to actually sustain an economy otherwise inflation just keeps going up and eventually money means nothing

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

The problem here is that we aren't "mercs" yet. There are no factions, merch corps., planetary contracts, etc.

I did read your post. I'm asking specifically what you wanted scaled.
The merc handbook is for TT. I've run campaigns for merc units using the guidelines and setting up contracts. This isn't going to translate well for the "campaign" they are using here. Not all mechs are going to be viable as a singular payday. Each player doesn't represent a single pilot. Each player represents however many mechs they own personally plus the free trial mechs.
A merc unit will have expensive units that aren't cheap to use and wouldn't pull them out unless it was a mejor conflict. So mech using L2 or even L3 tech wouldn't be pushed out for a minor mission because the repairs wouldn't be cost beneficial over an extended period. It's the same thing here. Each player is essentially their own merc corps. They have to pick and choose when they take those expensive shiny mechs out into battle and know that it isn't cost efficient to run those mechs into the ground repeteadly

Actually, we are all lone wolf mercs when we log in.

I believe that I made it clear on what will scale and how it will scale. For example, there is quality level that is based upon your stats that determines your rewards, using current rewards list, at the end of the match. Yes, merc commands will field all of their mechs since every campaign needs them. This includes ammo based builds.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Sandpit: You continue to defend problems instead of solutions. You basically said, "Ya, there's a problem, but I'm premium, so it isn't my problem, so I don't care." Like with most things you say; it isn't good. Also, premium should be for faster unlocks; not required just to break even over repair bills. You talk about possible revenue lost when that wouldn't be the case at all.(Again, people will pay it for faster unlocks one way or the other) We also have an economy that rewards players for doing nothing in a match but takes money away if you actually fight and lose in an expensive build. This all needs to be fixed immediately, not later. They shouldn't even have launched Open Beta with it the way it is. Why? Because now they have to fix it after declaring that there will be no more account wipes.

[James The Fox Dixon]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

No.
On both accounts. PGI never promised that every mech build possible would be economically viable.

Also, you have to be able to lose money, otherwise there is no point in money.

You have to be able to make money otherwise there is no point to money. Do you lose money?

I noticed that you have not presented a solution, but are saying that there is a problem and it's not your problem. I presented a solution to the current economy that is a win-win for everyone.

EDIT: Actually, PGI did promise that every build was possible. I put it in my original post and italicized it for ease of locating it. You ignored that.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[LogicSol]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

You have to be able to make money otherwise there is no point to money.

It's really simple to make money. Hop in a medium mech, tweak it, make money.
i have a fullu upgraded CN9-AL, it's a terror on the battlefield.
It costs less than 75k to repair and rearm fully. It's literally impossible to lose money with, even for a free player.
If you aren't making money, it's because you don't know how to play the game. No matter how many kills or victories you eke out, if you are losing money you haven't figured out how to pick the right mech for the job.

[James The Fox Dixon]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

It's really simple to make money. Hop in a medium mech, tweak it, make money.
i have a fullu upgraded CN9-AL, it's a terror on the battlefield.
It costs less than 75k to repair and rearm fully. It's literally impossible to lose money with, even for a free player.
If you aren't making money, it's because you don't know how to play the game. No matter how many kills or victories you eke out, if you are losing money you haven't figured out how to pick the right mech for the job.

Thanks for answering my question. You do not lose money. I've owned an AL and have lost money with it even with wins. You still haven't presented a solution to the basic economic problem, so I can safely ignore you now.

[Vermaxx]

I'm not activating my premium when they patch in the button. I've stopped using my founder mech because, well, it blowws (4G).

Come the end of the free premium time, I'm going to be a free player; and I can already see how painful that will be by subtracting my per-match bonus.

Add on top of that the fact that we will eventually NOT get the 75% ammo reload, running without premium is going to "pleasure me in the goat rear."

HOWEVER, I already have four mechs and (at present) around 11 mil. I am by no means in the same boat as truly free players, and I agree the pay is bad. The game has to entice the free people to pay, not hammer them over the head to pay. F2P is a strange balancing act: people buy a hot title because...well, they have to unless they're pirating it. Usually they can't play online if that is the case. With F2P, people expect the game to cater to them as a free title, and they quit if they clearly 'must pay' to keep up. There is a very hard balance that must be struck so people do not think they have to pay, while at the same time being tricked into 'wanting' to pay.

I'm kind of glad I decided to stay with mediums. Using armor repairs sparingly, I can probably turn a profit most of the time. I'll still most likely use trials so I can run with full armor. A new player walking in the door won't know the fun of a team or the fun of mechlab. Some will pay right off, a lot will quit.

Telling them 'F you we don't care, pay is fine, don't be a baby or just quit' is a sure sign the game will tank. I do not love the development style PGI is using, but at least the project is still progressing and wasn't cancelled weeks ago. The economy needs to 'hook' free players.

Because, frankly, the game modes and variety isn't going to do it.

[Sandpit]

The solution is not to run exclusively expensive mechs. No merc units do not run every single mech they have every mission.
Even if you run real-world mentalities for this. No company runs their most expensive resources without having other cheaper options to help support them. You have to have something that's going to sustain the areas that lose you money here and there but get you a "win". That's what cheaper builds are for. That's the solution. I haven't presented "solutions" because I don't think the economy is "broken" I'm defending the current status because in my opinion it doesn't need to be changed

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

The solution is not to run exclusively expensive mechs. No merc units do not run every single mech they have every mission.
Even if you run real-world mentalities for this. No company runs their most expensive resources without having other cheaper options to help support them. You have to have something that's going to sustain the areas that lose you money here and there but get you a "win". That's what cheaper builds are for. That's the solution. I haven't presented "solutions" because I don't think the economy is "broken" I'm defending the current status because in my opinion it doesn't need to be changed

Okay, I can add you to the ignore list for this thread. You have not presented a solution while ignoring the obvious. Limited mech bays combined with losing money on matches means that a free player will not spend money on the game. I addressed this in the first post and you've ignored it.

[FunkyFritter]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

It's really simple to make money. Hop in a medium mech, tweak it, make money.
i have a fullu upgraded CN9-AL, it's a terror on the battlefield.
It costs less than 75k to repair and rearm fully. It's literally impossible to lose money with, even for a free player.
If you aren't making money, it's because you don't know how to play the game. No matter how many kills or victories you eke out, if you are losing money you haven't figured out how to pick the right mech for the job.

And how does this system make the game better? I haven't seen anyone arguing that it's impossible to make money, only that doing so mandates the use of specific mech setups in a game that touts customization and variety as a key selling point. As a light mech pilot I personally have no trouble managing my expenses, but at the same time making assaults just as cheap doesn't hurt me at all and allows other players to have more fun.

Edited by FunkyFritter, 06 November 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

Ignoring me jsut because you don't agree with my "fix" doesn't make you right.

I haven't ignored any of your points. I'm sorry you don't agree or like my opinions on the matter but that's life sometimes.

The economy doesn't need to be tweaked, players need to understand that F2P doesn't mean you'll have all the best goodies and use them exclusively. If I can run an effective and good build with a Jenner and Hunchback on a regular basis and always make money even without my founders bonus then everyone can.

[Draco Argentum]

Bluten, on 06 November 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

As I said before; rewards need to SCALE with equipment like repairs do. If you bring a bigger Mech, you should get paid more in order to make up for the fact that you're losing more to repairs. Currently there is little incentive to pilot a bigger Mech because you'll make less money... you may as well stick to a Light or run around in a Hunchback.

Agreed. What merc would be willing to take the same pay to bring an Atlas to the field as a Jenner? It makes no sense lore wise and is terribad for gameplay.

[Sandpit]

FunkyFritter, on 06 November 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

And how does this system make the game better? I haven't seen anyone arguing that it's impossible to make money, only that doing so mandates the use of specific mech setups in a game that touts customization and variety as a key selling point. As a light mech pilot I personally have no trouble managing my expenses, but at the same time making assaults just as cheap to run doesn't hurt me at all and allows other players to have more fun.

^^^ and this