576 replies to this topic

[LogicSol]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

I noticed that you have not presented a solution, but are saying that there is a problem and it's not your problem. I presented a solution to the current economy that is a win-win for everyone.

You seem to think I want everyone to win, this incorrect.
People have to lose for others to win.
The economy doesn't really have a problem. It has things that are expensive enough that they need to be supplemented by running less expensive mechs.

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Thanks for answering my question. You do not lose money. I've owned an AL and have lost money with it even with wins. You still haven't presented a solution to the basic economic problem, so I can safely ignore you now.

you are either running an XL or steaks in it. Don't, the XL makes you more vulnerable, and you don't run streaks if you want to make money.
I have a ES/DHS build, with 15 HS, 1 LL, 3 mlas, 2 SRM6 and 3 tons of ammo. Max repair bill is about 75k. You can not lose money with it.

I gave you a solution to the problem, it's called playing smarter, instead of sticking your head in the sand while complaining you don't have enough money, while refusing to do what you need to make that money.

[Vermaxx]

They need to pick a stance and defend it.

PGI has said it is their goal to make every weight class competitive and useful. You cannot do this with sliding costs and fixed gains.

Either every mech is a valuable, unique snowflake; or some are that dummb kid in the back of the class. They need to pick a stance and defend it, so people who don't agree can move on.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of every mech being viable in every situation; but hey, I'm not here to tell you what you can and can't play. Tonnage limits are there to do that, battle values are there to do that, player rankings are there to do that. None of those are in right now, so the only thing telling people what they can play or can't is how much money they are making.

[Sandpit]

Draco Argentum, on 06 November 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Agreed. What merc would be willing to take the same pay to bring an Atlas to the field as a Jenner? It makes no sense lore wise and is terribad for gameplay.

They don't get paid to take an Atlas. They get paid to defend this area or attack that objective. It's up to the merc to figure out how to do that while making money on the agreed upon price for the mission objectives. If that means throwing out 5 cheap mechs and 1 or 2 "expensive" mechs to balance it out and still win the battle then that's what needs to be done

[James The Fox Dixon]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

You seem to think I want everyone to win, this incorrect.
People have to lose for others to win.
The economy doesn't really have a problem. It has things that are expensive enough that they need to be supplemented by running less expensive mechs.

you are either running an XL or steaks in it. Don't, the XL makes you more vulnerable, and you don't run streaks if you want to make money.
I have a ES/DHS build, with 15 HS, 1 LL, 3 mlas, 2 SRM6 and 3 tons of ammo. Max repair bill is about 75k. You can not lose money with it.

I gave you a solution to the problem, it's called playing smarter, instead of sticking your head in the sand while complaining you don't have enough money, while refusing to do what you need to make that money.

Still nothing of substance I see. Okay, have fun playing because you are in denial about the issue.

[Landsharkk]

I 100% agree with the OP.

Here's my take on the solution (also refers to a better reward system to encourage players to actually play)

http://mwomercs.com/...ngreward-system


I've played 90 matches now, a mixture of about half PUG and half Pre-Made. Even after 90 matches I'm only at CB 6.8million and that's from not spending anything this entire time.

[Elizander]

Turning off repair and rearm when farming isn't such a bad thing when you're in need of C-bills. It works great for an LRM boat (and we know how well those work). Most of the time you are not in danger unless your team lets several light mechs through the lines. If you blow up, you don't plan on repairing anyway.

I'm a founder and all but I still turn off rearm since I play a brawler cat, but I'd probably turn off repair too if I was boating LRMs. I just toss in an extra ton or two of ammo to somewhat make up for the 25% loss in the next match. I plan on playing a free account when I get some free time and I will see how it goes.

TL;DR

1) Turn off auto-rearm and auto-repair.
2) Build your mech around the fact that you only have 75% armor and ammunition.

[Team Leader]

Right on OP! Heck, the game economy is whacked for founders too! With the premium time bonus and the founders bonus, you still only get like 100k a match. For putting all this money down, I should be swimming in cbills. But no, it takes me like 5 hours to get 2 milllion if I dont upgrade or buy anything on my current mechs. I mean sure, that's way more than a non founder, but everybody needs a wallet buff in this situation! This game is way too much time needed to progress out of being a free player! I watched my little brother play on a standard account for a couple hours... he has almost nothing money wise still and gets wiped by LRMs at the start of the match. Its not FUN!

[Sandpit]

Landsharkk, on 06 November 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I 100% agree with the OP.

Here's my take on the solution (also refers to a better reward system to encourage players to actually play)

http://mwomercs.com/...ngreward-system


I've played 90 matches now, a mixture of about half PUG and half Pre-Made. Even after 90 matches I'm only at CB 6.8million and that's from not spending anything this entire time.

6.8 million is enough to buy your choice of several different custom mechs. What's the argument against the economy here? Even at halfway of your 90 matches you had 3.4 mil which was enough to buy a custom and run with it.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

They don't get paid to take an Atlas. They get paid to defend this area or attack that objective. It's up to the merc to figure out how to do that while making money on the agreed upon price for the mission objectives. If that means throwing out 5 cheap mechs and 1 or 2 "expensive" mechs to balance it out and still win the battle then that's what needs to be done

That is incorrect. On pages 147-169 of Field Manual: Mercenaries (Revised) it gives the costs of running a mercenary company and contract negotiation. Part of the pay is mech tonnage and its tech level that is detailed in the contract. Said mech weight and tech level is part of the Dragoon Rating. Higher the rating for tech and weight means that the price an employer has to pay goes up.

[Quxudica]

LogicSol, on 06 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I have to say, this is meant to be a simulation. Even though it's a light sim, the entire idea is replicating reality.

Even in a sim you must consider what aspects actually make for good game play, there are many things in life and war that do not belong in a game like this. Competition should be the focus, and the integrity of that competition should not be compromised just to extend the life of the content on offer. Make no mistake either, that is the only purpose for the economy, it's far to simplistic to make any real thought provoking impact on actual gameplay, it's only reason for being is to slow the progress of players and maximize the shelf life of what is at the moment a very slim feature set.

Given that, I would much rather have enjoyable balanced matches and true competition then a game in which those without are relegated to being cannon fodder for those whom have. That's not an interesting game to me, I get no enjoyment when I kill a player that had no opportunity to kill me in return and find it considerably less rewarding to kill a player that was at any kind of disadvantage.

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

That is incorrect. On pages 147-169 of Field Manual: Mercenaries (Revised) it gives the costs of running a mercenary company and contract negotiation. Part of the pay is mech tonnage and its tech level that is detailed in the contract. Said mech weight and tech level is part of the Dragoon Rating. Higher the rating for tech and weight means that the price an employer has to pay goes up.

That doesn't dictate what mechs actually partake in each individual mission. You cant' say overall tonnage in the contract negotiations dictates that all those mechs will even see battle.
I negotiate with Liao for 25million and allocate 200 tons, mechs, etc.
The contract involves attacking Kurita on Luthien.
I dictate what mechs are used and when in order to complete my contract. I'm not running my pristine L2 mechs out in initial contacts and prelim missions. Those mechs will be kept in reserve as will my big guns until I need them and wait for the large scale battle.
What I'm getting at (and yes the numbers are purely fictional and extremely crude but just for an example) is that you don't and shouldn't run the most expensive tech you have every mission because that's not financially viable. Sure you can say "I've got all these pretty mechs and I'll take this contract but I'm charging extra because my repair and refit is going to be more expensive" but the house has the equal opportunity to turn down the contract, renegotiate, or find another cheaper merc unit.
We don't have the option of houses and factions turning us down at this point. We jump in and play. Again I honestly think CW is going to completely change a lot of this but we simply don't know at this point

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

That doesn't dictate what mechs actually partake in each individual mission. You cant' say overall tonnage in the contract negotiations dictates that all those mechs will even see battle.
I negotiate with Liao for 25million and allocate 200 tons, mechs, etc.
The contract involves attacking Kurita on Luthien.
I dictate what mechs are used and when in order to complete my contract. I'm not running my pristine L2 mechs out in initial contacts and prelim missions. Those mechs will be kept in reserve as will my big guns until I need them and wait for the large scale battle.
What I'm getting at (and yes the numbers are purely fictional and extremely crude but just for an example) is that you don't and shouldn't run the most expensive tech you have every mission because that's not financially viable. Sure you can say "I've got all these pretty mechs and I'll take this contract but I'm charging extra because my repair and refit is going to be more expensive" but the house has the equal opportunity to turn down the contract, renegotiate, or find another cheaper merc unit.
We don't have the option of houses and factions turning us down at this point. We jump in and play. Again I honestly think CW is going to completely change a lot of this but we simply don't know at this point

Actually, it does when you're a lone wolf since you usually only have one mech in BT as a merc. A merc company is not a standard size, but can range from one mech to corps size units like Wolf's Dragoons. If your merc has more than one mech then the contract terms for payment slides because every mech is different in regards to weight and tech level, so the Dragoon Rating reflects this. Funny, but we're all lone wolves in MW:O right now since there isn't factions nor merc units. The BattleTech game manuals disagree with you and you still do not get it. Maybe you never will.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Kinilan]

You kids ever stop and think that maybe the progression time is graded against premium time users and not free players?

Free players can progress and maintain their mechs. Not as quickly and easily as PT users but free players aren't the focus of consideration and rightfully so.

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Actually, it does when you're a lone wolf since you only have one mech in BT as a merc. A merc company is not a standard size, but can range from one mech to corps size units like Wolf's Dragoons. Funny, but we're all lone wolves in MW:O right now since there isn't factions nor merc units. The BattleTech game manuals disagree with you and you still do not get it. Maybe you never will.

You're NOT a lone wolf though. At least not how you're using the term. A lone wolf doesn't have multiple mechs at his.her disposal. You can have an entire batallion if you buy the bays. You are a merc unit commander at this point. You aren't seeing what I'm saying. We aren't lone wolves because we DO have more than one mech. You keep referring to TT manuals that really have no bearing. We don't negotiate, we have no GM to monitor anything and say "No", we have no counter to us except the built in factors (economy, weapon limits, hardpoints, etc.) that act as a mediator.
If I'm running a TT campaign yes I'm going to make it challenging for the player. They aren't going to win every match. They aren't going to make money every time. They are going to have to play smart as a new merc unit UNTIL they've stockpiled some cash and built up a reputation.
You aren't going to start a new merc unit with excellent funding, pristine mechs, and lucrative contracts. you're going to start by taking crappy missions (hopefully something along the lines of garrison duty that pays for little to no combat and losses) and build up. That's EXACTLY what the economy represents now

EDIT: I would like to commend and thank you though for NOT just hitting the ignore button. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean either of our ideas are any less important

Edited by Sandpit, 06 November 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[LogicSol]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Still nothing of substance I see. Okay, have fun playing because you are in denial about the issue.

Entertainingly enough, I'm having a blast with the game.
My favorite mechs will still make money when my premium runs out, and since i have basic skills in fiscal planning, I will be able to run even expensive builds without premium as much as I want.

You on the other hand, are hell bent on making that as hard as possible by not using the option you have available to keep yourself afloat, and are thus having issues finding enjoyment.

In chess, pawns can't attack forwards. You don't let this fact ruin your fun, you make your strategies around this and plan accordingly.
Learn the game, and learn how to use it's rules to your advantage, because they aren't going to change just because you don't like them.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Nothing of relevance to the current economic woes for free players.

There aren't merc units in the game. You've said it yourself. We are all lone wolves that have the ability to own multiple mechs. No, those mechs are not always in pristine condition because the economy does not scale to what you bring to the fight. If you do rearm and repair your mech you will lose money as a free player because you do not have any bonuses to earnings. Thank you for finally agreeing with me that the economy is whacked.

[Sandpit]

James The Fox Dixon, on 06 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

There aren't merc units in the game. You've said it yourself. We are all lone wolves that have the ability to own multiple mechs. No, those mechs are not always in pristine condition because the economy does not scale to what you bring to the fight. If you do rearm and repair your mech you will lose money as a free player because you do not have any bonuses to earnings. Thank you for finally agreeing with me that the economy is whacked.

No sir, you're misunderstanding. We are NOT lone wolves. We are merc unit commanders. This is exactly why we have multiple mechs. At this point though it seems like you're just trying to be contrary. I don't lose money when I repair and rearm. I also don't run a bunch of mechs that have all the goodies because I know I couldn't sustain them without having other mechs that do earn money regardless of win or loss. The economy is in fact what it should be in my opinion.

[Leetskeet]

Win game

Only right torso armor is breached

Internals darkish yellow, mostly fine

Game wants 60k for "Items"

Yeah, oh-****ing-kay

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

No sir, you're misunderstanding. We are NOT lone wolves. We are merc unit commanders. This is exactly why we have multiple mechs. At this point though it seems like you're just trying to be contrary. I don't lose money when I repair and rearm. I also don't run a bunch of mechs that have all the goodies because I know I couldn't sustain them without having other mechs that do earn money regardless of win or loss. The economy is in fact what it should be in my opinion.

No, we are not merc unit commanders. We are lone wolves. Merc units are not in the game currently and when they are implemented into the game every pilot in a merc unit will count as one, not your fuzzy math. I have a merc unit commander and his name is coRpSE.

Of course you don't lose money when you repair or rearm because you have a premium bonus when outside of your founder's mech. If you are then you have double the bonus. That is part of your disconnect with what happens with free players every day. Bluten, a founder, sees the problem as do many other founders. I'll trust their assessment over yours any day of the week since they will listen to reason and logic.

Stay on topic of how the economy for free players is borked or leave.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 06 November 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[LogicSol]

Leetskeet, on 06 November 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Win game

Only right torso armor is breached

Internals darkish yellow, mostly fine

Game wants 60k for "Items"

Yeah, oh-****ing-kay

Sounds like an XL engine to me.