48 replies to this topic

[Aethon]

Clantech/lostech didn't break the game or anything; if anything, it made the playing field much more diverse; my only complaint is the Clan ERPPC. It makes the Clan Gauss Rifle largely pointless. I mean, why choose a weapon that is twice the weight, three times the volume, has less range, has a minimum range, explodes when hit, and requires a few tons of ammo (which take up yet more weight and space), when you could just use a CERPPC? I mean, sure, it has a lower BV, but that isn't a game-changer, to say the least.

I understand that there are cases where the CGauss just fits better due to heat constraints on an already-hot variant, but with the 13 tons it would take to mount a CGauss and a single ton of ammo, one could mount a CERPPC and 7 Double or Laser Heatsinks.

I just think that the Gauss Rifles...all of them...should have either an accuracy bonus (to reflect the speed of the projectile), a critical roll chance for each successful hit (perhaps, if you make the hit roll, you also get a roll to determine if it's critical, with 11 or 12 being a crit), more ammunition per ton, or perhaps they could simply NOT explode when hit; after all, something that large is almost certain to be hit once the armor in that section is gone.

I don't know...I love the Highlander IIC; I just feel like I'm needlessly sacrificing something if I don't replace the Cgauss on it with a CERPPC every time I use it, which I hate doing, since the Highlander IIC kind of needs a gauss weapon to be a Highlander.. It might just be me, though.

[Kudzu]

Aethon, on 27 April 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

I understand that there are cases where the CGauss just fits better due to heat constraints on an already-hot variant, but with the 13 tons it would take to mount a CGauss and a single ton of ammo, one could mount a CERPPC and 7 Double or Laser Heatsinks.

Open critical slot concerns for one, going PPC+HS takes 16 total slots.

[Aethon]

Kudzu, on 28 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Open critical slot concerns for one, going PPC+HS takes 16 total slots.

The main reason I did not mention the space is that, depending on your engine rating and other weaponry/equipment/armor type, you may not even need any external heatsinks.

I have used Gauss Rifles in the situation you described, though, and I agree.

Also, they are still VERY useful on IS mechs; there really is no weapon in the IS that has both their range AND their single-shot firepower, until you start dealing with the later-timeline stuff like Heavy Gauss, PPC Capacitors, etc., and a lot of that tends to be rather unwieldy at times. I just wish that either the Clan ERPPC did a few points less damage (12, maybe?), or that there was some other advantage to the CGauss; its IS counterpart is probably the most elegant weapon in the Inner Sphere, IMHO, and it would be great to see the Clan version receive the same treatment.

Just my 2 C-bills, of course.

Edited by Aethon, 01 May 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[Hedy Metal]

I'm new to the tabletop (just bought the anni intro boxset 4 months ago) game. My only previous exposure to the BT universe was playing the MW 3 and 4 videogames - so not much. I tried briefly to get into the MechWarrior Dark Age tabletop about 5 years ago, but it seemed weak for a minis game and consequently fizzled. Since getting the Intro boxset I've bought a few sourcebooks and a few buddies who are BT veterans dug their old books out of their attics for me. To be honest I've barely explored the clantech and lostech elements because the 12 month tournament I'm playing in began in 3025, and getting any lost Star League tech requires rolls that have seriously poor odds - they'll improve as we play though.

With the little time I've had reading the canon I can say the last decades of the 3rd Succession War -to- War of 3039 interest me the most story-wise. I've done some browsing of the Jihad based sourcebooks and I must say they have little or no appeal to me - I'm even less interested in the Dark Age stuff. I think what's cool about the Succession War era is that it has a cool mid 80's Cold War vibe to it that fits the setting well. Whereas the jihad story line just seems out of sync with that. The invasion of the Clans with superior tech IMO does fit with the rest of the canon, as its more or less obvious in the timeline that Karensky's ghost would eventually come back to haunt.

In the tournament I'm playing in you roll for available 'Mechs based on house affiliation which can sometimes give you weak units. Based on that experience, I can certainly see the appeal of intro'ing better tech that a player can use for parts upgrade. I personally can't wait to upgrade my more battlefield challanged 'Mech. I'm not sure if new tech will or won't cause inbalance our tournament, since there's rules that make it difficult to acquire. I guess only time will tell.

Edited by Hedy Metal, 24 June 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Captain Fabulous]

OPTION FOUR:

Made it possible to make stupidly funny mods to mechs, for example a Jenner with 10 medium lasers.

[Prussian Havoc]

ODonovan, on 16 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

...Give me PPCs and AC/20s over all the high tech equipment that came later...

How is it that I can agree with you here... but as I remember it, the Clans and LosTech took us all along for a wild ride that seemed a natural evolution of the game (imho anyhows!)

Maybe original 3025 tech can be the sole basis for Solaris Gaming... with only limited introduction of other equipment by exception or... by personalty or... after such and such acheivement.

Anyhow, there has to be a way for MWO to capture the "feel" / the "texture" of 3025 and the best of the Fourth Succession Wars!!!

[Streaks]

I'm fine with it.....it's about warfare where there is no such thing as balance. The story was already there and it had been some 300 years after all until the Clans came back. The only thing I really disliked about it was that the novels were so good until they offed Victor in such a terrible way.

[ragnarawk]

but there is a balance with clan tech. the clans have rules of engadgement and stuff that most player dont use because it "isant fun" thats the problem i have with clanners they eather stick to the fluff and are fun to play agianst (about 10% of em) or they drive em because they can stomp the mud outa that poor guy who picked a shadowhawk with his 75 ton mad cat just because (the other large portion). least thats how it became around here and thats how it killed the hobby for alot of our group.

[VonFranz]

Clantech really isn't that overpowered. If you use BV 2.0 rules clanners usually wind up with an uphill battle. They have better pilots in better mechs which makes their units very high point cost. I was playing one game where the clanner had FOUR mechs vs my veteran company. Granted he had 2/3 pilots but still, I had an entire company. Not a light company either a Lyran Royal Guard company with some heavy metal. Granted a clanner has advantages that they can exploit but as a clanner you cannot make mistakes. Also in tabletop the IS player typically has far more armor points to blow. This is important because while they might hit more often it usually dosen't make up for all the extra armor they have to chew through. The diversity of play styles is a good thing and it keeps the game alive. Had it stayed in the sucession wars it wouldn't have nearly as much popularity and the likelyhood of MWO even being developed would have been far less.

[Karl Streiger]

Well LosTech or Star League Technology isn't that bad. All improvements come at costs.
But Clan-Tech...well let me see...LRM weight half and have no minimal range -> turning them in absolute no brainer weapons.
Clan Pulse Laser even worse

[Greyjoy]

For my group new tech made games faster! Allowing for more overall playing. All mechs in 3025 tech are zombies and even a simple lance on lance game drags out until its crazy long. While i'm not all about clan tech I will say that lostech has really made the game more playable for more people.

[RangerRob]

As Greyjoy said..
Sped up the game with more head cappers, more accurate fire, Mechs falling quicker with XL engines (and the extra firepower they carry).

Plus come 3067 each faction got it's own "Flavor"

Stealth Armor for Liao
RAC's and targeting comps for Davion
Light Engines and heavy gauss for Stiener
etc.....

[Amarus Cameron]

Regardless of anything people say the reason why the new tech "broke" anything, if at all, is because people did not play with the actual rules. If you were a clansman like myself depending on your clan and your character you played with 5 levels of honor. 1-4 is ok, 5 is the clan will disown you, 4 is disiplinary action, 1-3 are good, 1-2 is great, and 1 is you are one honorable Clanner. If you actually played with that then you could lose if you did not play smart. My character always fought against other clansmen using level 1 honor, and level 2 against freeborn scum.

When things got crazy is when the IS had clantech and reverse engineered things. *shakes head* putting excellent technology in the hands of barbarians is always something everyone will regret.

[Beazle]

When Lostech is rare, it's pretty cool. It gives players in a campaign something to look forward too (upgrade wise), but at the same time, it takes something out of the game. Specifically double heat sinks drastically reduced the importance of heat management.

Don't get me started on Clan tech (or really, anything Clan). Sure it was great for the video games, but for TT not so much.

[Kraven Kor]

It did not break the game, but it did change it. It made "stand and fight" tactics more likely to work, in comparison to the older IS mechs.

Overall, I loved the Clan tech, as I am all about shiny new toys in RPG's. But it did very much change the way battletech was played.

Once IS had caught up a bit, it was more balanced and returned to the tactical gameplay a bit, but I had long since quit by that point (as most games I got to play involved me being given IS mechs for the host to demolish with self-reaffirming glee.)

[Lightdragon]

you know i like the lostech toys and hate the clan stuff but sometimes i long for the simplicity of succession wars period just because of the amount of strategy that has to be put into using them (once double heat sinks and case came out heat management just went out the window)

[Aeryk Corsaer]

I really believe it was used to show a gradual return to the glory days of old, as in Star League. It allowed FASA to open up different options to players while still allowing players to stick to 3025 rules if they wished. The Clan issue and their advanced weaponry and tech made sense but the types of weapons they developed seem a little off-kilter to how they would fight and duel. Up close and powerful weaponry seems more the focus they would have in development overall. BUT war technology has always seemed to focus on more range, such as the progress of rifles and cannon so it does fit overall military history.

[Bishop Steiner]

Well i voted for throwing game balance out the window. Mind you, the story arc was well done (Mike Stackpole is still the bard of battletech IMO), and had they stayed somewhat along the lines of the original invasion, probably would be more for it.

Honestly, the arms race that followed IS more realistic, since "balance" and warfare don't go hand in hand. It just got to be too much too quick, with little realistically to reign in the insanity. I have no issue with Lostech in and of itself, as having players find bits and pieces always was a treat, as long as things weren't taken overboard. One of my primary characters discovered a small periphery stash, and were able to salvage a few pieces (the unit always was heavily based with tech and the character in question was a poor man's Dr Banzai). Ended up with a Star League vintage Marauder for my ride. Only changes were 11 tons of ferro armor with case, and double heat sinks. The armor got mostly blasted off over the years, having to be patched with conventional. Not really a game breaker, ya know?

(Eventually commandeering a Jade Falcon Aegis class Heavy Cruiser during Operation Bulldog? Definitely broken!)

I even found it fun to Star League era campaigns. The tech was better, but not ridiculously so.

*shrugs* I dunno, guess I am just stubborn and like the old feel. Of course it seems like Jordan Weisman and company agreed, since Mechwarrior Darkage was a hackneyed attampt to bring back the old balance. (even if the reasoning was pretty darned forced)

[ODonovan]

MonkeyDCecil, on 20 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

And ODonovan you sound a little full of yourself. You don't control the forums and even though you make the thread, people can commit anyway they want.
If we want to make a commit about Tabletop and the computer games. Then we can. You were also no in anyway specific about which your were talking about. And if your going to be a jerk. Then good riddance to ya.

Full of myself? Jerk? Good riddance? Hey mud for brains, read what I wrote. I posted this thread to a different forum and a moderator moved it here to the Tabletop Chat board IN ERROR. This thread was NEVER supposed to be about the tabletop BattleTech game but about the game in general including the Mechwarrior computer games and MUSEs (text-based telnet games from the 1990s). What I was writing was for a moderator to CONTACT ME before they mess with one of my posts like moving it to another forum where it's not meant to be. If they want to know why I posted it where I did, I'll explain it to them, even if I have to use little words.

[ODonovan]

Ghost, on 26 April 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

If you prefer, I can move it to off-topic. It doesn't belong in MWO General though. That forum is explicitly for discussion about MWO, not MWO-related topics.

Thanks, Ghost. There's only one problem. There is no forum appropriate to my post/poll. Where is SHOULD go is in the BattleTech Universe section under the heading General. There is a section for Clans and for Tabletop, but where are the sections for Inner Sphere or for the game in general? This is about the game in general, including the computer games. The reason I posted it to the MWO General Discussion forum is because when the reboot was first announced which later became MWO, it was MechWarrior 3015, set in the year 3015, and was supposed to be entirely old tech. Therefore it directly applies to the way the MWO game has been taken since then.

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