28 replies to this topic

[Undead Bane]

Hello everyone!

Couple of hours before the forums were flooded with threads about how much the game got broken. Now they are flooded with threads "stop whining", "it's all about you", "the game is fine, you are not" etc.

While first flood I find to be very good, the second one is terribad. Let explain, why, taking as an example all but dead MMO SWTOR we have right now.

But first on general.

"Whining" is good, because it is not mainly whining. It is complaining about the bad sides the game has. PGI got lucky to get a very involved community (just like Bioware was before with SWTOR), that actually cares for the game, wants it to succeed and gets very upset, when the game gets... let's just say "not fun" instead of broken. Then tonns of posts about it emerge.
I hope, the devs read and understand the posts, otherwise, we will end up like SWTOR.

So, about SWTOR now. That WAS a promising game with high potential because of universe it was running in (don't you see the resemblance?). BUT. At certain point the devs went on with decisions, that proved the trusting community, that noone gives a **** about them. And the community just vanished. Soon, the game vanished too.

It's not a secret, that commonly, active gamers, who actually love playing, spend more time in the game, rather than on forums. So, if the game is fine and has mechanisms, that allow to communicate, they communicate there. Once the game starts going in wrong direction, active gamer leaves the game and goes to the forum, to write a complaint. Or, if he finds the same one he has, he reads the reaction on it and then takes decision whether to keep hoping for best, or leave and try something else.

Forum posters, on the other hand, live on forums. They love the forums, want them clean and nice. Probably, they love forums more, than the game, that they find "ok". So, once some complaint shows, they swarm it and write things like "game is ok, you are broken", "stop whining, the developer knows better" and so on.

And critical thing in their relationship is developer's reaction. SWTOR became the example of poor developer's reaction (actually, NONE) and decisions and died eventually.

Forum posters dominated on the forums, swarmed every thread, not a single solid complaint had a crew reply or reaction. In fact, all the reactions were exactly opposite to the ones players hoped to get. So, devs knew better and killed the game eventually, making it poor WoW clone with not much to do. They did listen to forum posters, who though everything was ok, and lost all their dedicated player base meanwhile

So, if you come to the forums after poor decision and think "omg, these people whine again... the game is ok" - know, that if you didn't see this "whine", that would mean that the game died and lost dedicated player base.

Be glad that you have that much "whining". As, I hope, PGI is.
And PGI, please, let us, gamers, know, that we are somehow heard.
Just plain silence and damage control won't do the thing for you.

PS
We do remember the big letter about OB delay, We loved it, it showed, that you listen to at least turbo-hyper-giant reactions of the gamers. However, I hope, that the reaction does not need to get that high for you, PGI, to take it into consideration - the dedicated gamers community does not have stamina to make such reactions every time something goes wrong.

Edited by Undead Bane, 07 November 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Draco Argentum]

Yet DHB is notorious for having many members who shout down criticism.

[Undead Bane]

Draco Argentum, on 07 November 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Yet DHB is notorious for having many members who shout down criticism.

DHB is not a soldier organisation, it is also a company of different people, which eventually includes forum posters. And you know, I didn't find many of DHBs to shut anything down (though, found some, of course).

DHB dedicated gamers, actually, just don't show up on forums much, just like other gamers don't.

[Soulscour]

The only feedback I've seen from anyone working for PGI was when one of the artists got mad when people posted that the Yen-Lo-Wang art style was racially insensitive. That and the 1 week delay of open beta.

[Undead Bane]

Soulscour, on 07 November 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

The only feedback I've seen from anyone working for PGI was when one of the artists got mad when people posted that the Yen-Lo-Wang art style was racially insensitive. That and the 1 week delay of open beta.

Same here. Actually, I've missed the artist's reaction.

But reaction can be not on the forums - it can (and should) be in actual changes they make. So far, it doesn't seem entirely like so, more likely they address minor thing (ok, matchmaker is not minor), than major ones.

[Martini Henrie]

I don't mind whining, but its a bit much when individual whingers each surmise that their particular whine requires a whole new thread for the single reason that their particular gripe isn't the OP. We need CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and it needs to be presented in a coherent fashion to allow the Devs to look into the issue.

We do not need 30 crymeariver threads about a single issue. Witness the changes to LRMs, do we need so many threads? No, after reading the first few and maybe adding the odd reply it gets fething TEDIOUS! Hence the loss of temper by some forum goers and the general feeling that the forums are inhabited by embittered self harmers who can only live in 50 shades of grey (book reference)...

My 2p on the subject

[dpidcoe]

Undead Bane, on 07 November 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

DHB is not a soldier organisation, it is also a company of different people, which eventually includes forum posters. And you know, I didn't find many of DHBs to shut anything down (though, found some, of course).

DHB dedicated gamers, actually, just don't show up on forums much, just like other gamers don't.

That may be true but that still doesn't erase the fact that aside from the OP, I've not seen a single post from a DHB member that was actually critical of the game.

I even had a few of them try to shout me down in TS when I was explaining an issue to paul on TS back in the early days of closed beta.

[Argann]

I heard there was DHB, so I brought bananas.

[GetinmyBellah]

OMG All I still is Wahhh Wahhh backed by something about Bioware and some star wars piece of junk that failed to topple wow once again. Rift is the only MMO to come close, so just drop it already.

Wahhh

Wahhh

BTW, We smoked en entire lance of yours the other night with a DC and three pugs running around with their heads cut-off.

LOL

Wahhh

[Kobold]

I hope some day FU can be notorious.

[Monky]

This is pretty much exactly what I said when unique hardpoint variants where introduced as 'pay only hero mechs'... and why I got a refund. The game is reasonably fun, but I love it because it's mechwarrior, not because I'm up against people who pay for an advantage. Founders package was PERFECT implementation of 'pay to skip grind not pay to win' and they went and said no, despite our wild success with founders, we're going to offer unique hardpoint variants with even bigger cbill boost from now on. Sure, the first one was a bit of a lemon, but already the 2nd one seems at least on paper to be capable of things that are somewhat superior to other mechs in game. It's a slippery slope...

Edited by Monky, 03 December 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Seijin Dinger]

Ok if you wish to referance Star Wars I will bring up Star Wars Galaxies. That too was a promising game, with ideas other MMOs did not follow such as the way you progressed in your class by putting points where you wanted, including multi classing as you wanted, etc.

The vocal minority after a while whined how it wasnt "WoW in Space" (though Galaxies predated WoW) and whined hard enough that the Devs changed the functionality to try and make it WoW in space with set classes etc, as well as the Combat Upgrade and drove the majority of the player base away.

So while whining about legitimate problems is fine, most of what I have seen is "X doesnt work how I think it should work, thus its broken and I demand it be fixed" and that type of whining is not right nor is it helpful, to the Devs, or the community as a whole"

Edited by Seijin Dinger, 03 December 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[Monky]

Seijin Dinger, on 03 December 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Ok if you wish to referance Star Wars I will bring up Star Wars Galaxies. That too was a promising game, with ideas other MMOs did not follow such as the way you progressed in your class by putting points where you wanted, including multi classing as you wanted, etc.

The vocal minority after a while whined how it wasnt "WoW in Space" (though Galaxies predated WoW) and whined hard enough that the Devs changed the functionality to try and make it WoW in space with set classes etc, as well as the Combat Upgrade and drove the majority of the player base away.

So while whining about legitimate problems is fine, most of what I have seen is "X doesnt work how I think it should work, thus its broken and I demand it be fixed" and that type of whining is not right nor is it helpful, to the Devs, or the community as a whole"

Then where was the majority of the player base in responding to it? I didn't play swg or any SW related game, but this argument is nonsensical. Pretty sure I remember most people saying 'they ruined it' and the SWG devs not listening.

I do agree with the 'whining about x factor doesn't work the way I think it should' to an extent, but when legitimate points are made only to be drowned out by yes-men for the devs, it detracts quite a bit from this argument. *edited to include updated quote*

Edited by Monky, 03 December 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Balsover]

"Why Boycotts Fail Where Whining Tantrums Win"

http://www.escapistm...ng-Tantrums-Win

[Sinluien]

Vegentius, on 03 December 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

OMG All I still is Wahhh Wahhh backed by something about Bioware and some star wars piece of junk that failed to topple wow once again. Rift is the only MMO to come close, so just drop it already.

Wahhh

Wahhh

BTW, We smoked en entire lance of yours the other night with a DC and three pugs running around with their heads cut-off.

LOL

Wahhh

everyone has their own opinions... and im unsure about why smoking your entire lance is relevent.

I agree with the OP. people arent (for the most part) saying f this game you guys suck. But the feedback of people leaving for now is quite important. the reason people are whining is they want it fixed. yea this idea sucked, these weps are OP; theyre working on the balancing, steadily, once a week it seems, but its like a plate on a pyramid your trying to play dont spill the beans on. Without being a bunch of d*cks i think its important we whine, maybe not 400 threads of the same, but we need the attention somehow. i also think the votes are critical for showing our statistics in these opinions. Hell i haven't been able to play with a nominal frame rate since the nov 20 patch, and believe me im glad theres eleventybillion posts on that (i can play farcry 3 just peachy). but i still try and i still give feedback, every patch day, and a couple matches during the week. It is a beta and i do think people should come b!tch, thats our job, in a kind way though. Otherwise it doesnt get fixed.

The last patch notes amazed me in comparison to the others. I think we do need some feedback, know where things are at, an I HEAR YOU once and a while. My greatest fear is what you stated, that they will make it THEIR game, not ours and we get mad go away, they fix it, but by then its already tanked... or becomes a perma beta (apb anyone?) the biggest deal is throwing money into the game and suddenly this patch ***** the game for us and we cant play anymore even though we beat their min specs by a longshot.

i almost made a post exactly like this earlier, except i was trying to plug the printer in with my feet and turned off the power strip...

Edited by Sinluien, 04 December 2012 - 12:09 AM.

[Particle Man]

"Whining" and "Constructive Criticism" are not the same thing.

The forums would be a much better place if more people realized that.

Quote

So, about SWTOR now.

what about it? i was playing it 2 days ago. it hasnt gone anywhere.

Edited by Particle Man, 04 December 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Lonestar1771]

Particle Man, on 04 December 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

"Whining" and "Constructive Criticism" are not the same thing.

The forums would be a much better place if more people realized that.

Whining, by this forum's definition, seems to be anything that someone disagrees with regardless of it's validity (typically the more popular forum-ites lead the charge). Where constructive criticism seems to be opposite.

[Monky]

I will say, I think the recent boost in Dev feedback has been in response to the 'whining' or as I call it constructive feedback. And it has been, for the most part, good. Some kerfuffle about ECM, but matchmaking was generally well received, and the only complaints about the paintjobs where 'we want more flexibility and permanence'.

In all honesty, if the devs focus more on communication, whining will be constriced to easily dismissed people who haven't read up on things. It's when people have read up on things and still have issues that there is a broad overall problem.

[Jman5]

OP, your entire premise is based on the flawed assumption that the whiners are always right and the people who disagree are wrong.

There will always be a massive amount of complaining about any game. I don't care how many millions of dollars and man hours you pump into it, people will claim the game is terrible and that whatever the developers are doing to fix things, it will never be enough.

What makes it worse is that a lot of the outrage you see on a day to day basis here is based on willful ignorance of what is coming down the line. Every day I see half a dozen new threads about how "imbalanced the Streak SRM is, and why isn't lazy PGI even acknowledging this issue?!"

However, if they had bothered to look into the command chair subforum, they would see a regularly updated log on the progress they are making toward balancing the SSRM 2.


So let's stop assuming that every whiner is correct and start reading up on all the updates coming out of the command chair. Because we could save a lot of time by educating ourselves.

[Socket7]

Oh look. It's THIS thread again.

Constructive criticism is all well and good. Filing bug reports and how to reproduce bugs is AWESOME. Reporting players who exploit game mechanics against the CoC is good.

But that's not what you see here most of the time.

Most of the time you see here on the forums, is... well exactly what you've written. A verbose rant that does nothing but say "I'm mad and I've got an open mic in the form of the "New Thread" button.

We don't need these threads. We need threads where people point out ACTUAL problems and pose REAL solutions.

We do not need "This MMO is doomed I'm taking my toys and going home!" threads. We do not need "Well THIS company made this entirely different game and that's somehow relevant to the fact I have problems playing an unoptimized beta on my 6 year old PC."