52 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Edit: Its not how much damage they do or how well they track or how tight the missles are... its the arcing. You have effectively made cover useless. That is whats broken with LRMS. Devs... Think MW4 when it comes to arcing... you wont make scouts useless.... scouts will always be useful. heck they get exp and cbills just for spotting and missles have nothing to do with it. Everything about your mechanics needs to be scaled up..... maps need tp be much bigger... targeting ranges increased, missle arcs nerfed ALOT, weapon ranges increased... But #1 - Bigger maps, We are still fighting in a fishbowl....

Need to review how LRMS worked in MW4... those were far more balanced than what we are seeing here. It seem devs are having a difficult time balancing LRMS with the parameters they created.

Ive said this before... use the MW4 LRM model, and tweak THAT system. Devs your not going to get LRMS balanced using your current model, they will either be too strong, or too weak that you need a crapton of ammo for them. Your not going to find the perfect medium because the model itself is flawed..

FACT - LRMS are indeed a powerful weapon, and also an easy weapon. The super high arcs that are coming with the artemis system are just way over the top. Literally!

Every match, and mean EVERY match is a missleboat fest. Light mechs die when they appear on radar. Scouting has been nerfed.

Spare me the "oh but we beat missle boats using X" comments. I know what it takes to beat a missle boat team. But this just isnt fun anymore. Tactics have reduced greatly after today. And our maps just keep getting smaller and smaller.

Speaking of maps... refurbishing an old map isnt going to cut you guys.... That is just being lazy. You should fire your mapmaker. You can do better. You need to make NEW and MUCH BIGGER maps.

Edited by Teralitha, 07 November 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[sokitumi]

Strongly agree with everything you said. Now fend off the nerds below about how MW4 failed in every way possible. GL!

[Tickdoff Tank]

How did LRMs work in MW4? (Not trolling, I truly do not know)

[Cragger]

[UltraMek]

In MW4 they were a little hotter, fired in lower arcs, and if your reticle so much as touched another mech (enemy or friendly) your lock was ruined, and could not be reestablished during missile's flight. They also moved more quickly through the air, and had no minimum range. They were actually pretty balanced.

I think that LRMs in MWO could be balanced by lowering the angle of the arc both in normal and Artemis maybe 20 degrees, and by cutting damage from 2 per missile to maybe 1.5-1.7

[Arthamel]

As when you fire your LRM in MW4, they hit where you are targeting em. You target head with lock, they hit head, and so on. If you shoot without targeting anything manualy, while having lock, they hit center torso generally.

[Teralitha]

LRMS did not fly up and over terrain, you literally had to hold your reticle over the target to get a lock, had no min range, could be dumbfired on a stationary target and the target would get no warning(loved that when scouting with LRMS) LRMS could be dodged by faster mechs, and blocked by terrain and destructable objects. For example if LRMS were incoming, and I had trees nearby I could move behind the trees and the LRMS would hit the trees and blow up, though a few would still hit me... Moving behind hills or structures would block LRMS. They did plenty of damage, but were balanced in that you could get in cover to block them. Not now where they fly up and over your cover and still kill you. Which is lame IMO. They had narc beacon which also was hard to use. If you missed and the narc was on the ground, all missles would go to it and be wasted. Scouts had to call out whether a narc was good or bad, also they only lasted a short time because one missle hit the narc, it would destroy the narc. Not many players bothered using narcs back then.

We also had flares, which, when fired at someones cockpit, would blind them. and at night would let them be seen from far away. That was kinda neat, but not many used that either.

I dont think Artemis was in MW4, until someone modded it in later. Cant recall.

Edited by Teralitha, 07 November 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Tickdoff Tank, on 07 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

How did LRMs work in MW4? (Not trolling, I truly do not know)

Here you go (this is for MekTek version of MW4, Inner Sphere LRMs):

Range 1000, recycle time 5s for all launchers, no min. range, lock breaks if anything passes through your reticle even for a moment and can't be re-established for missiles already in flight, trajectory resembles a low ballistic arc (in other words, you can use hills for cover).

Just for reference, Catapult has 4 "slots" per missile launcher (those are kind of like crits in MWO, see below) and can carry up to 390 pts of armor (1t = 30pts)

LRM5: 1 slot, 2.5 tons, 4 damage, 0.8 heat
LRM10: 1 slot, 4.5 tons, 8 damage, 1.6 heat
LRM15: 2 slots, 6 tons, 12 damage, 2 heat
LRM20: 2 slots, 8 tons, 16 damage, 2.4 heat

Edited by IceSerpent, 07 November 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[RedHairDave]

that sounds worse than what we have to be honest

[Teralitha]

Arthamel, on 07 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

As when you fire your LRM in MW4, they hit where you are targeting em. You target head with lock, they hit head, and so on. If you shoot without targeting anything manualy, while having lock, they hit center torso generally.

I found they generally spread all over the target or missed when you didnt have reticle on anything

RedHairDave, on 07 November 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

that sounds worse than what we have to be honest

Well then you obviously havent played it. Because its not worse, its better.

[Havyek]

Also, carry enough LRMs you could either stun lock someone by chain firing them, or knock them over.

[IceSerpent]

RedHairDave, on 07 November 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

that sounds worse than what we have to be honest

Just to give you a perspective, some other weapon values:

AC20: 3 slots, 15 tons, 400m range, 20 damage, 2 heat, 5s recycle
LBX20: 3 slots, 15 tons, 350m range, 28 damage, 2 heat, 5s recycle
UAC20: 3 slots, 18 tons, 350m range, 36 damage, 3 heat, 5.3s recycle
Gauss: 3 slots, 16 tons, 800m range, 18 damage, 1 heat, 6s recycle
PPC: 3 slots, 7 tons, 850m range, 12 damage, 11 heat, 6s recycle (no min. range)
Capacitor PPC: 4 slots, 8 tons, 850m range, 18 damage, 16.5 heat, 8s recycle (no IS ERPPC in that game, only Clan version)

[Dragux]

Everyone has their own tastes in what they believe should be the LRM's of choice... MW3 had decent LRM's MW2 had fire and forget LRM's at one point as well if im not mistaken.

Hell, the Dev's cant make everyone happy, they also stated they were going for the Table Top versions but Tabletop does not Translate very Well as an FPS game.

Let them do what they can, they have Test servers and are constantly working on new builds and setups for their games.. its still open beta guys and they are working very hard with a small crew on this...

This isn't a AAA company here, this isnt HALO 4 or COD 20000 or even Gears of War 50... its MechWarrior being built by a group of less than 30 people... Companies like Microsoft and Epic have over 100 people working on projects like this..

hell look at the collectors disc for Sou Cal 5 and you can see they have a group of up to 100 people working on that game ALONE.

[Valder]

Those MW4 missiles are obviously designed for a single-player focused game, where LRM's are a supplement to your other weapons that you use in fast paced close combat 1v1. Our LRMs are designed to give supporting missile boats a role by not requiring direct line of sight and having a minimum range to prevent people from using them as a shotgun or SRM replacement. Did artemis make them OP? Probably. Do we want low arcing missiles that have no minimum range? Ick.

[SpiralRazor]

Dragux, on 07 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Everyone has their own tastes in what they believe should be the LRM's of choice... MW3 had decent LRM's MW2 had fire and forget LRM's at one point as well if im not mistaken.

Hell, the Dev's cant make everyone happy, they also stated they were going for the Table Top versions but Tabletop does not Translate very Well as an FPS game.

Let them do what they can, they have Test servers and are constantly working on new builds and setups for their games.. its still open beta guys and they are working very hard with a small crew on this...

This isn't a AAA company here, this isnt HALO 4 or COD 20000 or even Gears of War 50... its MechWarrior being built by a group of less than 30 people... Companies like Microsoft and Epic have over 100 people working on projects like this..

hell look at the collectors disc for Sou Cal 5 and you can see they have a group of up to 100 people working on that game ALONE.

MW3 Pirates Moon had better LRMS then M4, by far.... Your ARC angle was controlled by how far back you rolled your torso....you could fire them directly which means they reached the target faster and hit the front facings/arms., or you could artillery them in mostly hitting the head/upper torso arms...but longer flight times.... They were dodgeable by fast mechs, and Artemis allowed them to track about 50% better. They also caused a knockdown if enough of them smashed into you at once.

MW3 also has a completely workable Arrow 4 missile system...one big missile that belched black smoke, 20 damage...cant be shot down by AMS. LONNNG range, but slower flight time then even the LRMS....however it tracked pretty darn well.


Pirates Moon was completely designed for the Multiplayer community, the campaign in it was an afterthought.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 07 November 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Valder, on 07 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Those MW4 missiles are obviously designed for a single-player focused game, where LRM's are a supplement to your other weapons that you use in fast paced close combat 1v1. Our LRMs are designed to give supporting missile boats a role by not requiring direct line of sight and having a minimum range to prevent people from using them as a shotgun or SRM replacement. Did artemis make them OP? Probably. Do we want low arcing missiles that have no minimum range? Ick.

I agree that min. range needs to stay, but low arc (as it was prior to the last patch) is an absolute must-have - LRMs are not supposed to drop vertically on target, that makes the whole cover mechanics useless.


Edit:

SpiralRazor, on 07 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

MW3 Pirates Moon had better LRMS then M4, by far.... Your ARC angle was controlled by how far back you rolled your torso....you could fire them directly which means they reached the target faster and hit the front facings/arms., or you could artillery them in mostly hitting the head/upper torso arms...but longer flight times.... They were dodgeable by fast mechs, and Artemis allowed them to track about 50% better. They also caused a knockdown if enough of them smashed into you at once.

MW3 also has a completely workable Arrow 4 missile system...one big missile that belched black smoke, 20 damage...cant be shot down by AMS. LONNNG range, but slower flight time then even the LRMS....however it tracked pretty darn well.

That's pretty much the same as MW4, except for controllable angle. I.e. in MW4 LRMs could knock you down and could be "dodged" by running behind a hill of a building, Arrow 4 was one big missile (can't be shot down by AMS, has long range - 2 or 3 km I think), Artemis increased LRM range to 1200 and damage by a bit.

Edited by IceSerpent, 07 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Skion06]

Dragux, on 07 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Let them do what they can, they have Test servers and are constantly working...

You lost me there

[Teralitha]

Valder, on 07 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Those MW4 missiles are obviously designed for a single-player focused game, where LRM's are a supplement to your other weapons that you use in fast paced close combat 1v1. Our LRMs are designed to give supporting missile boats a role by not requiring direct line of sight and having a minimum range to prevent people from using them as a shotgun or SRM replacement. Did artemis make them OP? Probably. Do we want low arcing missiles that have no minimum range? Ick.

Uh... no... MW4 was not a single player game. that has nothing to do with it anyway.

[gregsolidus]

Personally I thought LRM targeting needed more leeway so I could manually fire my LRMs over basic obstructions without losing the lock.

[Henchman 24]

So they're being compared to MW4 which admittedly, mish-mashed Clan tech with IS in various areas due to the timeline.

And you all think this applies to pre-invasion mechs how?

No minimum range? wth? Why bother having a difference then?

Oh and "scouting has been nerfed" is utter B.S. - EASY scouting has been nerfed, the lag shield has been nerfed...I know this gets said alot but it fits....pilot your scout better.

My friend who runs a Jenner last night thought his armor was tissue paper, I laughed just about the same time someone on the other team pointed out that he was not properly avoiding missiles while hiding ..."That Jenner still thinks he has his lag shield on!" or something to that effect was the comment. And he was right!

Once my bud realized the truth of it, his night got better, he was more sneaky, more responsive to the battle around him, and didn't die after that at all DESPITE the Artemis LRMs raining all around him.

Please don't act like we all buy into this thinking, not when we have real examples to the opposite.