42 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Unless you want jenners coring an atlas through the back in 3 seconds, you don't want 20. DHS..

....oh wait the decimal point was in the wrong place the whole time. D'oh!

[Slade Deleportas]

@ Ghogiel: How in the world could that EVER happen? I'm sorry I can already alphastrike 3-5 times with SHS's on my Jenners... Unless you are talking about stripping EVERYTHING off of one to fit 6 large lasers or some god awful build like that it is IMPOSSIBLE to core an atlas in one or two alphas, which with cool down rates are the best you can ever get off in 3 seconds...

Not precisely a personal attack, I've seen that statement thrown around the past few days that Russ himself said that. Where did he say it at etc? Give me proof and I might believe it...

[Tickdoff Tank]

Slade Deleportas, on 13 November 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

@ Ghogiel: How in the world could that EVER happen? I'm sorry I can already alphastrike 3-5 times with SHS's on my Jenners... Unless you are talking about stripping EVERYTHING off of one to fit 6 large lasers or some god awful build like that it is IMPOSSIBLE to core an atlas in one or two alphas, which with cool down rates are the best you can ever get off in 3 seconds...

Not precisely a personal attack, I've seen that statement thrown around the past few days that Russ himself said that. Where did he say it at etc? Give me proof and I might believe it...

This thread: http://mwomercs.com/...49#entry1362549 (It was Garth, not Russ)

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 13 November 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Slade Deleportas, on 13 November 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

@ Ghogiel: How in the world could that EVER happen? Give me proof and I might believe it...

I am not sure you being an Atheist has anything to do with this.

[Slade Deleportas]

Ok, thanks for proving they actually said it. Still don't believe it though. lol.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Slade Deleportas, on 13 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Ok, thanks for proving they actually said it. Still don't believe it though. lol.

I agree with you, I doubt that it happened exactly the way he said it, but it *was* said

[DivideByZer0]

1.4 is too low, in my opinion.
But some of you are flawed in your logic. DHS is not useless. It just becomes LESS useful with heavier mechs, generally (it is a competition between free space and free tonnage).
Example:
I am currently running 2 catapaults that just use the internal 10 engine heat sinks, upgraded to DHS.


One cat has 2x LRM 20 and 2 sbl, the other one runs 1x ERPPC and 1x Gauss.

Both use standard engine, and are cheap to run, and very heat friendly (I CANNOT overheat the LRM cat, it's just not possible).

My heat sinks take up 0 critical slots. That is 20/0 = infinite heat per crit slot.


f*** yeah , I just divided by zero. ∞

Edited by DivideByZer0, 13 November 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[aspect]

Joehunk, on 07 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

2. For almost every build I have looked at, it's impossible to use DHS in combination with any of: XL engine, Ferro Fibrous, or Endo Steel, just because DHS are so crit space intensive. Most builds I make come down to a trade off between running DHS vs. running SHS and an XL engine, and the heat dissipation is almost identical between the two (usually a hair more for the DHS case, which is at least something). Then if I try to run an XL engine and DHS to get even better, I simply can't. I run out of crits long before tonnage. FF and Endo are worse still.

You buy upgrades that are incremental and result in trade-offs that prevent you from upgrading everything at the same time? And these upgrades might make your mech worse in other ways?



I like how we have huge threads complaining about how you can't upgrade everything at the same time or buy upgrades that hugely affect performance, and huge threads complaining that some mechs/weapons/builds are better than others or overpowered, *at the same time*...

I'm so glad I don't work at a video game development company.

Edited by aspect, 13 November 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Hida Kisada]

Alright previously I had posted that DHS needed to be 2 crit slots to be effective enough to warrent their use. Having played the game a bit more and toyed with builds and things i take this back.

DHS probably don't work out on larger chassis simply because of their size constraints, but having a larger DHS engine would also be rather useful i'm sure. It just depends on the type of build you are going, a multiple high heat weapons build with DHS Probably isn't your best option but in my HBK-4P running DHS has freed up enough weight to allow me some interesting things. I haven't tried with SHS to see if i could sneak more out of it or not but at the moment my DHS build with 2 ER large las and 7 small las is working out rather well for me, and the heat dissipation is quite efficient.

Really it just depends on what role the devs want DHS to fill. Currently they seem to benefit lights the most which makes sense since if you think about it, Ferro/Endo upgrades will benefit them the least. This is likely intentional and alright by me. Wouldn't mind seeing them a little more useful to mediums, but it could just be a lack of experience with them and having not tested enough ideas yet. I will say that having to pay .75mil or 1.5 mil to switch between DHS and SHS is a pain though, why would i have to pay for it again if i already had it just to test new build ideas?

Also with clan invasion clan DHS were 2 slots, so that could be something we see as well.

Edited by Hida Kisada, 15 November 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

Wingbreaker, on 07 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

Furthermore, Clan DHS are already 2 crit slots.

you are right. But the IS DHS and CLAN DHS can both still be 2 crit slots and this is how.

Make IS DHS (1.4) and take up 2 crit slots for 1 ton
make Clan DHS (2.0) and take up 2 crit slots for 1 ton but make it that unless you are running in a Clan MECH you cant use the Clan (2.0) DHS. The only mech that should be able to use Clan tech anyway are Clan Mech and LATER Clan IS refits.

Now some will say wait! Why should Clan mech get a 2.0 DHS and IS mech get the 1.4 DHS? Simple... Clan Mech weapons run way hotter than any IS tech so the Clan 2.0 DHS would bring their weapons right into range (heat wise) with IS weapons.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 15 November 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Hida Kisada, on 15 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Alright previously I had posted that DHS needed to be 2 crit slots to be effective enough to warrent their use. Having played the game a bit more and toyed with builds and things i take this back.

DHS probably don't work out on larger chassis simply because of their size constraints, but having a larger DHS engine would also be rather useful i'm sure. It just depends on the type of build you are going, a multiple high heat weapons build with DHS Probably isn't your best option but in my HBK-4P running DHS has freed up enough weight to allow me some interesting things. I haven't tried with SHS to see if i could sneak more out of it or not but at the moment my DHS build with 2 ER large las and 7 small las is working out rather well for me, and the heat dissipation is quite efficient.

Really it just depends on what role the devs want DHS to fill. Currently they seem to benefit lights the most which makes sense since if you think about it, Ferro/Endo upgrades will benefit them the least. This is likely intentional and alright by me. Wouldn't mind seeing them a little more useful to mediums, but it could just be a lack of experience with them and having not tested enough ideas yet. I will say that having to pay .75mil or 1.5 mil to switch between DHS and SHS is a pain though, why would i have to pay for it again if i already had it just to test new build ideas?

Also with clan invasion clan DHS were 2 slots, so that could be something we see as well.

You do know that currently, engine heatsinks are working at 2.0 value, and only externally mounted (or bonus sinks from a 275+ engine) are 1.4's, right?

The current values do not invalidate anything you said, just wanted to make sure you knew how they are currently working.

[Daekar]

If you think DHS are worthless, try this: Take a K2. Max the armor. Leave the stock engine. Swap in DHS. Replace the weapons with 4 Large Lasers. Fill the rest of the mech with DHS. Make group 1 alpha strike, make group 2 chainfire all four. Watch things melt with minimum effort.

Any more heat mitigation, and I could do this with ER Large Lasers and melt your face off at 700 meters. That would be a very very bad plan. No, heat needs to stay where it is or be nerfed a bit.

[Jabilac]

Why not add a bonus applied for each Double Heat Sink when grouped together? 3 DHS give you an additional 1 heat dissipation and 1 added to your heat threshold. That would be a .33 increase for each one effectively making them 1.73 but only in stacks of 3 outside of the engine.

Another idea would be after 3 DHS you get a 10% bonus increase for each DHS equipped. That bonus would only apply to DHS equipped outside of the engine as well.

Obviously those amounts could be adjusted but would help out those that need to carry a larger amount of HS.

[Joe Mallad]

Daekar, on 15 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

If you think DHS are worthless, try this: Take a K2. Max the armor. Leave the stock engine. Swap in DHS. Replace the weapons with 4 Large Lasers. Fill the rest of the mech with DHS. Make group 1 alpha strike, make group 2 chainfire all four. Watch things melt with minimum effort.

Any more heat mitigation, and I could do this with ER Large Lasers and melt your face off at 700 meters. That would be a very very bad plan. No, heat needs to stay where it is or be nerfed a bit.

so your heat efficiency would be around 1.20 then?

[Daekar]

Yep, it's currently around there according to the mechlab. However, it plays cooler than that. Usually I have the option to alpha strike whenever I want it, unless I'm in a very prolonged brawl, in which case the chain fire is perfectly adequate. It really is totally broken, you should try it in case it gets nerfed somehow. I was feeling like I wasn't going to use it, but during the course of the evening I have changed my mind. It's satisfying to watch people vaporize, you can almost see their surprised faces through the cracked glass of their cockpit...

[Monky]

DHS are about perfect. Maybe raise them .1 to 1.5 so they're easily calculated by the player, but that's it. there are many instances in which SHS are superior and many instances in which DHS are superior, and it changes based on the build and chassis you play, I call this successful implementation.

[Inkarnus]

Slade Deleportas, on 13 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Ok, thanks for proving they actually said it. Still don't believe it though. lol.

you cant kill an atlas in 3seconds maybe in 6 but you must hit always thesame backplate konstantly
and after 3 shoots your overheatet and if he just moves his torso its like nono you dont take me down
so saying you hit a atlas in the back greater 3 times while he sits just there and let you hit him in 1 backplate with 6 MED lasers is the most surreal thing i heared

Edited by Inkarnus, 15 November 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Jacmac]

I'm not going to claim that DHS in the current state is broken, but that assumes that PGI keeps the 2.0/1.4 combination they have going on now. If they modify the existing stats on DHS to flatten out the the heat for all DHS (engine and external), then I think something like 1.6 or 1.7 would be fair. Lower than that basically makes a lot of builds not viable again. It is interesting that since DHS has been out, I've seen noticeably greater numbers of PPCs and large lasers being used. That is good, because prior to that everyone was running missiles and gauss builds.

[yashmack]

Tickdoff Tank, on 15 November 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

You do know that currently, engine heatsinks are working at 2.0 value, and only externally mounted (or bonus sinks from a 275+ engine) are 1.4's, right?

The current values do not invalidate anything you said, just wanted to make sure you knew how they are currently working.

so then removing 2DHS to add enough space to add an xl engine with 3 more DHS sounds like an even better idea now...
even a standard engine or XL engine with 2 more DHS would be an improvement then
hmmmmm, im glad it works this way now

Edited by yashmack, 15 November 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Monky, on 15 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

DHS are about perfect. Maybe raise them .1 to 1.5 so they're easily calculated by the player, but that's it. there are many instances in which SHS are superior and many instances in which DHS are superior, and it changes based on the build and chassis you play, I call this successful implementation.

They're not. The engine ones work at 2.0.
Those outside are at 1.4.

It's good you people know what you're talking about.

Daekar, on 15 November 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yep, it's currently around there according to the mechlab. However, it plays cooler than that. Usually I have the option to alpha strike whenever I want it, unless I'm in a very prolonged brawl, in which case the chain fire is perfectly adequate. It really is totally broken, you should try it in case it gets nerfed somehow. I was feeling like I wasn't going to use it, but during the course of the evening I have changed my mind. It's satisfying to watch people vaporize, you can almost see their surprised faces through the cracked glass of their cockpit...

I've been doing this since I first got into the beta, but with standard sinks, and using four large lasers on my atlases. It's not something you need dubs for.

I hope you realize this.