532 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

wanderer, on 06 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

There has to be two opposing pulls on an MWO game.

One is making it feel like Battletech. If it doesn't, it's not "Mechwarrior", it's "Stompy Bots Online".

The other is in adjusting that without destroying the spirit of the game's premise. If you don't limit that, you end up with head-desk sounds coming as the players collectively find the nearest furnishing and contact it repeatedly with their skulls in frustration at the results of "balance"

DHS going to 1.4 falls squarely into the "too far" range, as it neatly savages half the weapons systems in favor of missiles and ballistics (and small lasers). I've always said changes to heat and damage are the most brutal and blunt alterations to the game, and this one is about as brutal as it gets.

have you factored in the boosts DHS get's from "Cool Run" and "Heat Containment." ? No... didn't think so.

yes it won't be "double the cooling" but in a way, that's better for game balance, and if you feel it's not, I feel sorry for you.

What screwed past MW titles? Laser boats.

What's screwing MWO? Gauss, SRM's and LRM's.

There WILL BE NO SUPER BALANCE. and the "mathwarriors" will always break the game because the "ultimate DPS CONFIG CALLS TO ME!" is stuck in their brain.

The only way to balance this game, would be lock out customization and force stock drops only... but it won't happen.

[Yeach]

I've iterated this point before.
They took TT balanced rules,
changed some of them but failed to change parts that they affected

Simply
Armor vs Firepower vs Heat/Ammo
1 : 1 : 1 ratio

Doubled armor (which I am not opposed to)
Trippled Firepower (3 times firing rate)
And left Heat at original TT Levels

2 : 3 : 1 ratio... THAT IS THE MAIN PROBLEM it should be 2 : 2 : 2 for a BALANCE GAME

Of course heat is the main resultant problem.
The LEAST that they need to do (IMO) is to have a systematic 100% increase in the efficiency of single heatsinks to -0.2 heat per second (instead of the -0.1 heat / second).

Other thoughts;
-Rate of fire can remained increased at trippled the rate; you can fire faster but you would heat up faster and can shut down faster.

-Due to the absence of convergence, suggestion is to increase the heat of the "smaller" weapons is not a bad idea.
TT 4 Mediums Lasers vs 1 AC20 (for balanced heat) ; AC20 = 7 heat, ML = 3 heat each
4 Medium Lasers (4 ML + 12 HS) = 16 tons
1 AC20 (1 AC20 + 2 Ammo + 7 HS) = 23 tons
Clearly keeping original TT values of heat and damage (and not having to adjust for convergence)
The medium lasers option is superior than the AC20 option ; 7 tons or 44% better in weigh efficiency (23/14)
If medium lasers were increaded to heat per; then the tonnage would almost be balanced 24 tons ML vs 23 tons AC20

edit: can't speel

Edited by Yeach, 06 November 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Purlana]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 November 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

have you factored in the boosts DHS get's from "Cool Run" and "Heat Containment." ? No... didn't think so.

yes it won't be "double the cooling" but in a way, that's better for game balance, and if you feel it's not, I feel sorry for you.

What screwed past MW titles? Laser boats.

What's screwing MWO? Gauss, SRM's and LRM's.

There WILL BE NO SUPER BALANCE. and the "mathwarriors" will always break the game because the "ultimate DPS CONFIG CALLS TO ME!" is stuck in their brain.

The only way to balance this game, would be lock out customization and force stock drops only... but it won't happen.

It doesn't take a math wizard to figure out that ER Large lasers and PPCs blow when compared to other weapons. If we are not going to follow TT values for heatsinks and "rounds", just adjust the weapon values.

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

[Purlana]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

You can already do that in a dual AC/20 Cat...

[Scorm]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

So is this a confirmation that the 1.4 applies to the heat capacity increase as well as the cooling rate?

[MrPenguin]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

You can already do that in a dual AC/20 Cat...

Cat's aren't light mechs.

[Tagichatn]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If you dont see the issue with upgrades that you pay more for being downgrades over cheaper supposedly worse tech i really dont know what to tell you.



Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

No one cares about whether tech is tier 2 or whatever, this is Mechwarrior, not Battletech. With some builds SHS is better, other builds will want DHS. It's called having to make a choice.

[Squidhead Jax]

I wanna know what the heck he had on that Jenner that could pull that off in at most two shots (one, unless we're talking multiple ERPPCs).

Of course, if heat overflow capacity is perceived to be the bigger issue, there's the suggestion running around to make DHS heat ceilings worse than singles in exchange for their (full!) dissipation advantage.

[wanderer]

Jade Kitsune, on 06 November 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

have you factored in the boosts DHS get's from "Cool Run" and "Heat Containment." ? No... didn't think so.

Yes, actually. Nothing like running some tests with a 100 rated engine to get as close to that "all HS are 2.0" experience as you can on a Hunchback.

Even with perks, 'Mechs using actual 2.0 DHS will start cooking in short order. All it does is slow the process down a bit somewhat and changes big energy weapons from being silly to merely taking effort to use at some level of reasonable ROF.

With 1.4 DHS, simple math shows that for larger designs, it becomes a liability, not an upgrade due to less efficient sinks and high critical space requirement rendering SHS better. Which is sitting there and turning what's supposed to be the standard into an item half the 'Mechs in the game won't use, especially the very same ones for whom DHS would make firing big ol' energy weapons viable.

[Yeach]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

So why not have DHS NOT increase the THRESHOLD for heat capacity?
This gives an alternative of WHY to use single heatsinks instead of doubles; higher heat threshold.

And in regards to being able to core an Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds....
there are alternatives I think that can be done to make weapons "less" accurate.

I am guessing you have a Jenner using lasers so simply adjust so that it requires you to have lasers "line up" on the target longer to get the full damage effect. (like MW3 pulse lasers); IF it requires you to hold on to the back of an Atlas, the atlas soley needs to torso-twist so that it doesn't take the "full" brunt of the laser effects and henced would not be cored so easily.
IMO

[wanderer]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner.

I'd like to see the build, Garth. I don't honestly think a Jenner could deliver that much firepower as to eat through 20+ back armor and the immense amount of internals to go with it in three seconds- which is at most two cycles of weapons fire.

It doesn't have the tonnage to do that even WITH DHS.

[Stoicblitzer]

aspect, on 05 November 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I only read a small amount of your post. Wall of text complaints that are filled with references to a 90's tabletop game are not my forte.

my sentiments exactly.

[Sandpit]

Oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooo you mean this isn't an exact replica for the TT game? This actually makes some changes for balancing issues and the fact that it isn't turn-based? Heathens! Blasphemers! Heretics! (Insert whatever bad name you prefer here)!

Seriously, if you want to play TT (of which i'm a die-hard long-time fan) then play TT or Megamek or another port that is the TT game. MechWarrior has NEVER been a true copy and never will be a true copy of the TT game. This is a bit overboard. If DHS are the only reason you were playing this game, then why bother? If you feel like it's not fun anymore maybe take a break and come back? All of the DHS talk is ridiculous. They're starting it at 1.4. Oh no!!!!! Not the dreaded 1.4! If it doesn't work well at 1.4 they will adjust it. Most of the posts regarding this are pointless whining that gets disregarded by the devs while well written and thought out posts get buried under the trolls and people who whine about how a 1.4 DHS completely broke their mech and destroyed MWO. 1.4 > 1.0 that's not hard to figure. If it's not > enough for you to pay the fee then stick with SHS. Everyone talks like a 1.4 DHS is absolutely going to cause the game to implode and ruin MW and BT foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

Garth, guys,

Why not just ditch the naming conventions and give yourselves some breathing room?

Is it not headache enough to try and make something cool, and appreciated, without working from a painted in corner?

Vex

[EyeOne]

Isn't this thread a little (or a lot) too dramatic?

[Darkmoose]

wanderer, on 06 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Armor was doubled so people wouldn't just alpha-strike and one-shot opponents, especially lights.

Without double armor, a Gausscat could leg a Jenner in one shot and you could core most lights from the front in a single stroke. Nothin' like coming round a corner and BANG, is there?

Likewise, you don't want to set things to 10 sec intervals. Again, it encourages alpha strike-and-run. Pop up over hill. FIRE ALL THE THINGS. Go back behind hill. Repeat.

And I tend to agree with the fact that the one core thing that was TT, heat sinks just got slapped silly. SHS are fine, but apparently we have "Fear of a blackDHS Planet" playing on PGI's sound system.

In the TT game a gauss rifle can leg a jenner and does so often, and a gauss slug or AC/20 to the head is a death sentence. To be honest I don't have a problem with Heat Management now or ever, you adjust, SHS or DHS, you figure out how to fire the most with what you got. It isn't like some players are running around with 2.0 DHS, 1.7 DHS, etc as some have recommended. We have either SHS or nerfed DHS, love'em or leave'em.

[Dark Mortuus]

Wake up and see this is a Beta please. I understand ur frustrated, but give suggestions on how to fix the problem. Dont just spam the devs with "use a diff name"

[Vexgrave Lars]

EyeOne, on 06 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Isn't this thread a little (or a lot) too dramatic?

Not really.. lot of people, including you, already invested not just money but a ton of time in this. I'll take overly "dramatic" to indifferent trash any day, particularly when I'm spending my money (I hope eventually) on something.

[pesco]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.

Please tell us about that 1-1 translation! Was the rate of fire of all weapons fixed to 10s? Otherwise: Do any of the devs happen to have read one of the million threads detailing precisely why that "1-1" translation was mucked which has nothing to do at all with that being tabletop and this being video but simply with the translation being done wrong?

SCNR.

To be clear: Do any of the devs realize how weapon stacking and heat as a damage limiter warp the balance landscape?