29 replies to this topic

[KingDerp]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Maps do require balancing and checks. You'd be amazed at how unbalanced maps can be from even the littlest thing, or how easily and invisible wall can slip into them without anyone actually knowing. This is why good maps often take months to complete.

Quit pretending like you are some game designer.

Caustic and Forest colony are simple maps.

It's kind of sad the way you are trying to portray maps with a few hills as some kind of deep project
that will suck the life out of PGI.

[Noth]

KingDerp, on 07 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Quit pretending like you are some game designer.

Caustic and Forest colony are simple maps.

It's kind of sad the way you are trying to portray maps with a few hills as some kind of deep project
that will suck the life out of PGI.

and star craft maps are just a square area with mineral and few elevation changes scattered around. If you think no thought goes into those hills and ridge lines you would be sorely mistaken. Oh then there are things that you aren't even thinking about such as rain, snow storms, heat coefficients, all stuff that adds complexity, all stuff that requires testing.

[KingDerp]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

and star craft maps are just a square area with mineral and few elevation changes scattered around. If you think no thought goes into those hills and ridge lines you would be sorely mistaken. Oh then there are things that you aren't even thinking about such as rain, snow storms, heat coefficients, all stuff that adds complexity, all stuff that requires testing.

"desert" is next.

Oooohhh a flat plain with a couple dunes...
I'm sure that needs 6 more weeks of playtest.

[Noth]

KingDerp, on 07 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

"desert" is next.

Oooohhh a flat plain with a couple dunes...
I'm sure that needs 6 more weeks of playtest.

Depending on the heatscale, possibility of sand storm in the map (localize or all encompassing), finding problems with falling through the map, finding invisible walls, figuring out which dunes need to be taller or shorter to help define the intended flow of the map, adding other structure or elements that are deemed needed or desired. Then doing that repeatedly for each new revision of the map. Yes that is a lot of testing, and would probably take longer than 6 weeks to fully test it. Heck they'll still miss things like they have done with the current maps.

A lot more work goes into professionally made maps than the the vast majority of player made maps.

[KingDerp]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Depending on the heatscale, possibility of sand storm in the map (localize or all encompassing), finding problems with falling through the map, finding invisible walls, figuring out which dunes need to be taller or shorter to help define the intended flow of the map, adding other structure or elements that are deemed needed or desired. Then doing that repeatedly for each new revision of the map. Yes that is a lot of testing, and would probably take longer than 6 weeks to fully test it. Heck they'll still miss things like they have done with the current maps.

A lot more work goes into professionally made maps than the the vast majority of player made maps.

Sigh...

It is understandable maps have to be playtested and corrected.

Maybe Ballard needs to hire more than his mother and cousins to make the game.

[Noth]

KingDerp, on 07 November 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Sigh...

It is understandable maps have to be playtested and corrected.

Maybe Ballard needs to hire more than his mother and cousins to make the game.

Even with a large team it can take months to properly test a map.

[sokitumi]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Spoken like someone who has no idea how long it can take to model and detail a balanced map. A good map can't just be thrown together. BTW they have two new maps in the works.

Wrong. It shouldn't take a team of two people more than 1 month to make what we see, granted river city is an exception, but the other 3 maps not so much. Half the assets are reused anyway. Supposedly PGI has 45 people developing the game. If even 1/10th of them are dedicated artists and level designers, this progress is abysmal.

[Zanathan]

This from the Kotaku Q&A was interesting:

grezgorz

Is there any chance of implementing some kind of system that would allow for the optional use of fan contributed maps & other content? Maybe add in a check box for those who want to opt out of unofficial maps? I think many fans are willing to donate their time and expertise to the community and tapping in to this resource could go a long way towards building good will with your supporters.


RussBullock

There is a lot of conversation about this but I think realistically this is a ways down the road, we have a lot of work and features to get implemented before we can go there. Although you just might see some minor aspects like player made decals show up a lot sooner than that.


And this:


Habboi


Another question if that's alright. Will you be supporting custom levels? I can tell you've used Cryengine and is it possible you might support custom maps by users one day? Valve do it and their games are so much better because of it, might be beneficial for you too.
I don't have much knowledge of their SDK but I tell you now I'd be willing to learn it. Trying to make a custom map for the original Mechwarrior 4 was one of the things that got me into game development from a young age


BryanEkman

It's a huge system. SOE is starting to do this. It's in the ether, but no plans yet. We'd most likely start with something more simple, like decals.

RussBullock

I answered this earlier but essentially never say never but we have too much on our priority list at the moment to work this out. We may see some smaller player made aspects like decals come in fairly soon.

[Noth]

sokitumi, on 07 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Wrong. It shouldn't take a team of two people more than 1 month to make what we see, granted river city is an exception, but the other 3 maps not so much. Half the assets are reused anyway. Supposedly PGI has 45 people developing the game. If even 1/10th of them are dedicated artists and level designers, this progress is abysmal.

Assets aren't the issue. You know how many games make maps that are thoroughly tested with larger testing groups yet still have problems? Nearly all games. There's a lot more work that goes into these than you think. People need to realize that in game design and development it's never as simple as just do it and it's done.

As a player I can just throw together a map and call it good because I don't have to meet any standards or go through paperwork testing (there is a ton of paper work required for professional testing most the time). It's never a matter of just going "hey you fall through the ground here" It's more along the lines of a essay describing how you found it, at what angles it effects how it effects how often you can reliably you can fall through the ground, what you did to cause it originally further things that you found that caused it. What you think is the real cause, why you think that is the cause, any suggestion you have for the map, and much more.

Why is it so much paper work and description? Because the issue may not be what it initially appears to be. It may be a bug in the programming, an issue with a certain mech, loadout, animation, and more. Those write ups then go to a lead tester who reads through them and leaves notes and possibly prioritizes further testing to search for and find these issue. He also will make notes for the designers and developers highlighting what he feels is the most pressing issues found in testing.

Only then does it finally get to the designers and developers who must look into the issues found and even attempt to reproduce them. Then they can fix them or find out why it does something and that may lead to further issues that need fixed. This is done for each revision of the map.

That at least is how typical professional testing works out. I would imagine PGI does something similar.

[sokitumi]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Assets aren't the issue. You know how many games make maps that are thoroughly tested with larger testing groups yet still have problems? Nearly all games. There's a lot more work that goes into these than you think. People need to realize that in game design and development it's never as simple as just do it and it's done.

As a player I can just throw together a map and call it good because I don't have to meet any standards or go through paperwork testing (there is a ton of paper work required for professional testing most the time). It's never a matter of just going "hey you fall through the ground here" It's more along the lines of a essay describing how you found it, at what angles it effects how it effects how often you can reliably you can fall through the ground, what you did to cause it originally further things that you found that caused it. What you think is the real cause, why you think that is the cause, any suggestion you have for the map, and much more.

Why is it so much paper work and description? Because the issue may not be what it initially appears to be. It may be a bug in the programming, an issue with a certain mech, loadout, animation, and more. Those write ups then go to a lead tester who reads through them and leaves notes and possibly prioritizes further testing to search for and find these issue. He also will make notes for the designers and developers highlighting what he feels is the most pressing issues found in testing.

Only then does it finally get to the designers and developers who must look into the issues found and even attempt to reproduce them. Then they can fix them or find out why it does something and that may lead to further issues that need fixed. This is done for each revision of the map.

That at least is how typical professional testing works out. I would imagine PGI does something similar.

Yes you're right of course about the complexity of professionally made level design. And yes a user made map doesn't have the fine tuning a team can make. But almost everything you stated is mitigated by quality and experienced planning. It's not as rigorous as you make it out to be, and it's not a simple as I made it out either. But lets be honest here, these maps aren't THAT large, the assets are reused, and we've seen very little progress since july. 1 true map addition (and it was a good one, river city).. and some minor assets added to the existing ones.