51 replies to this topic

[Otto Cannon]

I don't mind exactly how they work, as long as I can mount one in the head energy hardpoint of my mech and breath fire.

I also love setting forests on fire to overheat my enemies who are standing in them.

[AuGuR]

Canon-wise, flamers were typically used to ignite buildings and foilage, thereby causing mechs in temperate climates to run as if in deserts. Not to mention a way to cover an escape with the smoke.

Personally think you should be able to shoot the stream as long as you hold down the fire button till the fuel runs out (ammo based)... tho, the flamer supposedly uses heat generated by the reactor, the heat generated by firing was due to the ambient flame outside the mech. Makes you wonder why it wouldn't do more damage to armor, especially ablative, if it could cause that kind of build-up on its own.

[Dvinn]

I like Flamers, they can provide interesting tactical choices such as negatively effecting a target mechs heat management, providing smoke cover if there are flammable objects around and making hot zones out of flammable stuff that can work as barriers or no go zones to warmer running mechs. It remains to be seen what attributes and options we will have with them at release and what the Dev's plan on adding later.

CBT stats for the Flamer are: generates 3 heat, 2 damage, 3 hex range, but I don't remember how much heat the add to an enemy mech.

While the Flamer Article I linked says that they operate on/as vented engine heat the Fluff for the HER-2S Hermes II in the original Technical Readout 3025 book says that it's Olympian flamer is fuel based. I don't know if that was changed in the revised edition or not. It would be interesting to have the option between fuel and vented flamers, perhaps a fuel version could generate less heat for the firer but have limited ammo and the risk of ammo explosion.

P.S. If Elementals show up with with the Clans I'll be putting at least one flamer on every mech I pilot

Edited by Dvinn, 17 July 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[Gendo]

Xandralkus, on 17 July 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

A weapon that causes heat on the enemy target alone and does little else fulfills a very small niche in the game. It would barely be worth classifying as a weapon - more like a piece of slightly useful tactical equipment.

I would like to see the MWO flamer follow Mechcommander 1, and exist as a useful brawling weapon. It should not be useless against any mech, regardless of their heat management capabilities. The fact that it applies heat to the target should be a purely ancilliary function.

Flamers should do less DPS than lasers, or perhaps weigh more and do similar DPS, but the rate of fire should be low. Low enough to justify large bursts of damage as opposed to the faster recharging and more sustained damage of lasers. Personally, I'd like to see a stream of fire for 1 second or so, mimicking the short damage-over-time of other energy weapons.

Remember that lasers flash-melt or flash-vaporize things on contact as a method of doing damage. Technically, this should apply 'heat' to the mech, but it is apparently not a statistically significant amount, even among spectacular laser barrages. Even a white-hot jet of superheated plasma shouldn't interfere too greatly with heat dissipation.

What is good game design and what is historically accurate are not always the same. Mechwarrior Online is a game, not a Battletech historical documentary. As such, game design comes first.

TLDR: The primary objective of a weapon is to do damage. This model works for a reason. Flamers are weapons - and first and foremost, they should do damage. Any other effect they cause (heat) should be purely secondary.

sad but COMPLETELY wrong!
1. the primary funktion of a weapon is NOT to deliver damage but to BEAT the opponent! doing damage is ONE way... the flamer is usefull to reduce the ability to use heat building weapons - or if they are already fired to drive the opponent into shutdown/ammo exposion...

2. in TT you can ignite any square with the flamer, generating smoke which gives visual cover. played with a gamemaster and visibility checks a firestarter can turn into hell of a scout. seeing the enemy is nice, but the ability to hide his teammates is his main advantage imo...

3. the heatsinks transfer heat from the mechs interior to the surrounding air. when hit by a flamer, the air heats up beyond the internal temperatur and suddenly the heatsinks start to transfer the heat INTO the mech. a laser tries to focus his energy (heat) on a single point - heating the air is a unwanted side effect there...

Edited by Gendo, 17 July 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Dvinn]

That's a good point Gendo, and an interesting perspective on weapons.

Also I disagree with Xandralkus, If a game deviates too much from it's source material, even in the name of game design it can loose touch with what made it cool to begin with. Yes we need game design/balance/as few exploits and bugs as possible but in the end it still needs to be battletech/mechwarrior.

[Gendo]

Dvinn, on 17 July 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

CBT stats for the Flamer are: generates 3 heat, 2 damage, 3 hex range, but I don't remember how much heat the add to an enemy mech.

its +6 heat for a full burning mech as far as i remember. and only +6 - no matter how many flamers have hit for you can only burn ONCE at a time...

[aresfiend]

*Engages flameshield*

Guys, I think MechAssault did it best with the firing mechanics where you could fire it for as long as you could keep cool. I mean it was kind of overpowered with the whole overheat the enemy mech so they can't fire and cause insane amounts of damage, but it would work as a great suppression weapon up close if they didn't cause bookoo amounts of damage (Or personally, ideally any). I mean that one light mech that knows they've ran in to something over their head could quilckly spray the Atlas that's trapped them to get it's heat up then run off.

[Breach]

Traditionally I always used a flamer on my light mechs, giving an edge over larger targets by limiting their use of high heat weapons. I would like to see them in the game but I don't think not having them would be a detriment to the game by any degree.

[wtfitsnotbutter]

Gendo, on 17 July 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

heatsinks start to transfer the heat INTO the mech.

that's completely wrong.
heat sinks "pump" the heat out, although they arent called heat pumps it is what they really are

[Fruits Punch Samurai]

flamers will make the game interesting

[fett]

Flamers will be a very specialized weapon more useful in some environments than others. A niche weapon like that or mechs that come with them by default (Firestarter) could easily fit into the category that poeple need to buy - everyone will want a "special teams" mech in their stable when they need to pull some creative tactics out to pull out a win.

Though we will probably know what environment we will be dropping into, Im guess we wont know what mechs our enemies are dropping in. If we did, I could see a case where an antidorte for a mech with poor heat dissipation is to drop in the Firestarter.

[JFlash49]

gasoline and matches, up in flames! (8)
i liked flamers, the made things interesting.

Edited by JFlash49, 18 July 2012 - 10:23 PM.