118 replies to this topic

[Calmon]

To prevent another storm to the forum for a very obviously problem I want to discuss it before coming out:

What is the plan of PGI to prevent 8 men-teams of Atlas to join the queue and get matched against 8 hunchbacks for example? Or if not even the mech number needs to match to prevent 8 Atlas vs. 5 Hunchbacks?

Without any restriction you run into the next QQ/Cry-forum-filler. People are not stupid! Team players are connected with smart peoples in their teams.

So if you don't have ANY restriction. Teams will go to Heavy/Assault only!

And please before you start explaining that every mech has a role: it has for sure! BUT please understand: a hunchback has only a role if matchmaking consider he's just 50 tons in any way (tons/class matching)

In moment we have a class-matchmaking but for teams this is not possible because big teams will usually never find another team of exact same classes in an acceptable time!

So for PGI it makes sense to just throw away the whole class/teamsize matching to get the queue run! But again: Without restriction and no balance between different mech classes we will have an assault fest! At least the smart guys will have. The rest will follow more or less after some weeks and after they realize the have a big armor and a bit less DPS disadvantage. Forum will get filled with endless discussions around medium mechs are worthless now, etc. pp.

So please, the forum need some time without discussions about something obviously: FIX THE THING BEFORE BRINGING PASE 2 OUT!


I don't have a perfect solution for you, PGI needs to invest some brain into it (if no talready done). Some suggestions:

- either restrict total tons or classes for teams somehow. So allow X tons max for 8 men, or limit assault to 2, etc. not perfect I know

- you could go in a way that the team players need to define an alternative mech. I suggested this some time ago in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...23#entry1352423

- you could even start to implement a "battlepoint" system like TT have. For sure this needs more time and nothing you can present us for Nov20th (where Phase 2 starts)

But please use any mechanism other than NO-RESTRICTIONS.

Thanks.

Edit Dec6th: Seems like Atlas Fest is here, all solutions ignored by PGI (even the easy to implement). I really miss a guy with masterplan, so much semi-good stuff released with no brain...

Edited by Calmon, 06 December 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Spencley]

Have they said that the matchmaking is changing to allow any mix of weights go against any mix of weights? If they have then okay i think it will be a nice change and you will see a lot of teams fielding different setups. maybe see the 8 atlas's but whats to say they wont get harassed and have the weapons focused off them by a group a lights.

If you want to play with 8 assault mechs then you should have to wait for another group with 8 assault mechs. any team doing that is clearly just having a mess.

I think your jumping the gun and trying to raise issues that might not even be a problem. Slow yourself down enjoy the game for what it is at each stage. Once the new stage is released then raise the problems then.

[Apoc1138]

with the current state of the game I would be more worried about a team made entirely of 130kph+ jenners and cicadas

they haven't said how they are going to manage the 8 players queue... I would presume that it would make at least a passing attempt at matching people on classes, but I would also imagine that if no matches are found with a similar makeup that it will keep casting the net wider till it does find a match... however I would also possibly imagine that if 1 team starts doing all 1 mech loadouts, that other teams will be doing it too, so they'll be matched against other 8 man single mech teams most of the time

[tvih]

Why would one even assume that it won't match weight classes like it does right now? Ok well, given PGI's track record I guess that was a silly question. But the solutions are simple. Either the above, or the classic method of simply matching total tonnages of the teams.

[Calmon]

tvih, on 08 November 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

Why would one even assume that it won't match weight classes like it does right now? Ok well, given PGI's track record I guess that was a silly question. But the solutions are simple. Either the above, or the classic method of simply matching total tonnages of the teams.

Because the only information we have now is this:

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/


Phase 2: November 20th

Pre-Made groups will be able to match against other pre-made groups.
Min group size: 4 players
Max group size: 8 players
Class Matching: No
Uneven Teams: Yes

There is nothing about any restriction. The implicit state NO Class matching (which we currently have!) and uneven teams.

This is exactly the reason for my thread. I want it clear BEFORE they patch it in to prevent the obvious problem.

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 03:14 AM.

[Slanski]

A mech commander should count tons, not mechs. So the best matchmaking would be 8vs8 and the total tonnage bid being matched against the next closest total tonnage bid by another team in queue. It would not require a perfect match, but only the closest.
Thus the teams have the option of fielding more assaults, balanced by more lights or go for more medium sized firepower with fewer scouts. Giving the players options and decisions is good, but choices without consequences are bad.

[Krivvan]

There doesn't need to be any restrictions at all. A heavier mech is not better than a light mech. You used to see balanced 2,2,2,2 teams easily beat out all 8 atlas teams all the time.

[Eshek]

I would love to see battle value matching, although tonnage would also be nice.

[Apoc1138]

Slanski, on 08 November 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

A mech commander should count tons, not mechs. So the best matchmaking would be 8vs8 and the total tonnage bid being matched against the next closest total tonnage bid by another team in queue. It would not require a perfect match, but only the closest.
Thus the teams have the option of fielding more assaults, balanced by more lights or go for more medium sized firepower with fewer scouts. Giving the players options and decisions is good, but choices without consequences are bad.

whether it does it on tonnage or closes match in classes won't make a massive difference I don't think

a team with 8 assaults is still going to get matched with a team with the closest to 8 assaults that it can find, whether it be 4 assaults with 2 heavies and 2 mediums, or 8 heavies or... whatever happens to be queuing at the time

with no hard requirement to match classes or weights if the only 2 groups queuing are 8 lights vs 8 assaults then that is the match it will find

I suspect that teams will vaguely try for mixed loadouts anyway because you never know what you are going to face and a very specialised loadout team will be great if the enemy decide to fight on their terms, but otherwise, not so much

an all atlas team will be quite limited in it's ability to choose where the fight happens unless they steadfastly sit in their own base waiting to all alpha the first thing that pops it's nose somewhere they can see it

Edited by Apoc1138, 08 November 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Wispsy]

I do not understand. What makes you think 8 Atlas would be strongest? judging mech usefulness on tonnage is just crazy :/

[Calmon]

Wispsy, on 08 November 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

I do not understand. What makes you think 8 Atlas would be strongest? judging mech usefulness on tonnage is just crazy :/

Well there is a bit more thoughts inside than just the tons but mainly yes! An atlas may not the best damage dealer but what people mostly don't understand by just checking damage stats: It has by far the best armor ingame, even the other assault (awesome) is nothing to compare (and usually nothing for close range!). So you help your team by just taking the front damage.

In moment the stats you see on the end reflect in no way what a atlas really do for your team. This is perfectly fine! We don't want to give atlas pilots more XP/C-Bills just because they play atlas, so don't take me wrong! But the whole system only works balanced because if our side has 4 assault mechs, the other side has it too!

When this isn't true anymore the Atlas will rock by just outclass the lower classes. And when I say "Atlas", keep in mind: I just want to make the problem visible. Of course there will exist on other class levels as well.

And explicite the light mechs: Take it out of the discussion. There is a lot to say about this but I don't want making it more complicate.

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[Slanski]

Apoc1138, on 08 November 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

whether it does it on tonnage or closes match in classes won't make a massive difference I don't think

a team with 8 assaults is still going to get matched with a team with the closest to 8 assaults that it can find, whether it be 4 assaults with 2 heavies and 2 mediums, or 8 heavies or... whatever happens to be queuing at the time

with no hard requirement to match classes or weights if the only 2 groups queuing are 8 lights vs 8 assaults then that is the match it will find

I suspect that teams will vaguely try for mixed loadouts anyway because you never know what you are going to face and a very specialised loadout team will be great if the enemy decide to fight on their terms, but otherwise, not so much

an all atlas team will be quite limited in it's ability to choose where the fight happens unless they steadfastly sit in their own base waiting to all alpha the first thing that pops it's nose somewhere they can see it

Still the team that was unfortunate enough to have bidden the highest tonnage would get to drop against the 8 Atlas cheese. Thus it incentivises you to be careful with your setup and not go over the top with your tonnage. Also for 8 man premades/clan drops a 30 second to 2 min waiting queue to find a better match is completely acceptable.

Ideally we would want merc companies/teams with their own rating and a ladder on a more crafted bidding system.

[Wispsy]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Well there is a bit more thoughts inside than just the tons but mainly yes! An atlas may not the best damage dealer but what people mostly don't understand by just checking damage stats: It has by far the best armor ingame, even the other assault (awesome) is nothing to compare (and nothing for close range usually at all). So you help your team by just taking the front damage.

In moment the stats you see on the end reflect in no way what a atlas really do for your team. This is perfectly fine! We don't want to give atlas pilots more XP/C-Bills just because they play atlas, so don't take me wrong! But the whole system only works balanced because if our side have 4 assault mechs in the other side has it as well!

When this isn't true anymore the Atlas will rock by just outclass the lower classes. And when I say "atlas" now, I just want to make the problem visible. Of course it will exist with other unbalanced correlations as well.

And explicite the light mechs: Take it out of the discussion. There is a lot to say about this but I don't want it even more complicate to understand.

I would much rather a balanced team then a full team of atlas....And people only take awesome now over the atlas because of hardpoints...so they would still do so. I think you are underestimating what every other mech brings to the battle...especially light mechs, if I see a full assault team on my Jenner it is like a field day. You maximise armour and minimise your speed, that may be more suited to your playstyle but it does not make it autowin :/

[Calmon]

Wispsy, on 08 November 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

I would much rather a balanced team then a full team of atlas....And people only take awesome now over the atlas because of hardpoints...so they would still do so. I think you are underestimating what every other mech brings to the battle...especially light mechs, if I see a full assault team on my Jenner it is like a field day. You maximise armour and minimise your speed, that may be more suited to your playstyle but it does not make it autowin :/

Well the main problem is: You can't see it in the moment. Because we have Class-Matchmaking! Also the stats are balanced to make all classes playable.

It says nothing about the real use of the mechs!

And I don't say its an autowin but its an incredible good bonus which will decide the games at a high percentage. People want a skill based win and not a ton/class based one. Average skill Atlas team will just win by far over average skill hunchback team.

And yes it needs some theoretical thinkings about everything to get it understand. And the "8x hunchbacks" is just to make it more visible. It can be the 2xassault, 2xheavy, 2xmediuem, 2xlight- team as well.

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[Krivvan]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Well the main problem is: You can't see it in the moment. Because we have Class-Matchmaking! Also the stats are balanced to make all classes playable.

Most Some of us are talking from experience before class-matchmaking existed.

Edited by Krivvan, 08 November 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[Calmon]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Most Some of us are talking from experience before class-matchmaking existed.

So you don't believe that a half-brained 8xAtlas team will stomp over your well structured half-brained 2xeach class team?

What exactly let you think this? Both teams act as team so for sure they both focus fire, stick together and priorize the targets.

Team A have just more than double health than Team B.
Team A has more DPS than Team B
Team A has more variances in weapon use (usually atlas uses both close and range weapons in one mech to use the heatsinks optimal)
Team B has just quicker mechs

So you really believe when both act as team on same skill Team B has the same chance to win this? Why? In every game system the Atlas would bring you more value (TT) in the battle. They reflect this with "Battle Points" which also consider other factors.

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[Wispsy]

well unless the hunchbacks are really good and the atlas's are all pretty bad then yes I would expect the atlas team to win....but an atlas team will be severely disadvantaged against a team of 6atlas2jenner....or perhaps 4atlas2gausscat2jenner...but then what if you happen to come up against a light heavy team too...well better throw in 2atlas(or awesome if thats what you like)2gausscat2lighthuntermediums(ilikecenti)2jenner...oh look a a balanced team that can easily defeat 8 atlas and will have good standing against anything else it comes up against too...ofc some people will always think that assault mechs are big and strong and always dominate the field...

[Ultrabeast]

This game has always matched people based on weight class. If you bring 8 atlases, the game won't start until the enemy team has that many, or awesomes, or something close.

Edited by Ultrabeast, 08 November 2012 - 04:50 AM.

[tenderloving]

Spencley, on 08 November 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Have they said that the matchmaking is changing to allow any mix of weights go against any mix of weights? If they have then okay i think it will be a nice change and you will see a lot of teams fielding different setups. maybe see the 8 atlas's but whats to say they wont get harassed and have the weapons focused off them by a group a lights.

If you want to play with 8 assault mechs then you should have to wait for another group with 8 assault mechs. any team doing that is clearly just having a mess.

I think your jumping the gun and trying to raise issues that might not even be a problem. Slow yourself down enjoy the game for what it is at each stage. Once the new stage is released then raise the problems then.

A coordinated group of Atlases with a balance of weapons will win against a coordinated group of anything else. He's not jumping the gun, the devs have shown a surprising ability to overlook very obvious flaws.

[Krivvan]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

So you don't believe that a half-brained 8xAtlas team will stomp over your well structured half-brained 2xeach class team?

What exactly let you think this? Both teams act as team so for sure they both focus fire, stick together and priorize the targets.

Team A have just more than double health than Team B.
Team A has more DPS than Team B
Team A has more variances in weapon use (usually atlas uses both close and range weapons in one mech to use the heatsinks optimal)
Team B has just quicker mechs

So you really believe when both act as team on same skill Team B has the same chance to win this? Why?

Absolutely, at least if that skill level is up to a certain level.

At the moment the simplest strategy is everyone sticking together as a ball and focus firing. This is not what competent teams just do. 8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if games consist of everyone just sticking together in a firing line.

Having quicker mechs is one of the most powerful things in the game right now. Imagine if you had a team of 8 Atlases against a team of 5 Atlases and 3 Jenners. The 8 Atlases literally would not have any option to leave their base. If they all leave, the Jenners will force them back. If they split up the firepower of the 5 Atlases will win out and the Jenners can easily win a duel against 2 Atlases.

The only option is for the Atlases to defend, but defending teams have the inherent disadvantage of not being able to focus their fire for the initial stages because the enemy team chooses where they want to attack.

Also, it's not just speed, it's maneuverability. Perhaps you haven't seen this since it's easy to blame lack of collisions and lag now, but light mechs are able to duel an Atlas 1v1 and come out winning unscratched. Jump jets also allow light mechs to beat Atlases. A Jenner can continue jumping over an Atlas and landing in cover over and over again without a chance of getting hit because of the Atlas' firing angle.

Medium mechs are not quick enough to do what light mechs do (barring the cicada) but they are quick enough to quickly move to support teammates that need help and they are quick enough to retreat. An Atlas, although it has the most armour, is one of the most vulnerable mechs in the entire game because once it has been committed it has no chance to retreat.

Smaller and faster mechs are the best mechs to defend a base with. The only way you're defending the base with an Atlas team is by leaving Atlases behind, but doing so means that a scout can take one look at the base then call for the team to just easily destroy the group of 6 Atlases.


8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if you think of the game in the most simplistic way possible comparing DPS and armour only.

And this is not even getting into scouting and spotting.

Edited by Krivvan, 08 November 2012 - 05:02 AM.