118 replies to this topic

[Enigmos]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

...
What is the plan of PGI to prevent 8 men-teams of Atlas to join the queue and get matched against 8 hunchbacks for example? Or if not even the mech number needs to match to prevent 8 Atlas vs. 5 Hunchbacks? ...

There is already a very effective system in place and the Devs don't have to code a thing for it to be absolutely effective. It is called natural selection. The best mix for your premade is going to be up to you. If you think eight Atlas is the way to go, just try it. You will learn whether that is a good idea or not through the system of experience.

Edited by OriginalTibs, 08 November 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Krivvan]

OriginalTibs, on 08 November 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

There is already a very effective system in place and the Devs don't have to code a thing for it to be absolutely effective. It is called natural selecction. The best mix for your premade is going to be up to you. If you think eight Atlas is the way to go, just try it. You will learn whether that is a good idea or not through the system of experience.

They'll learn very quickly why such teams only work against the most braindead teams.

[tenderloving]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Most Some of us are talking from experience before class-matchmaking existed.

You mean when the game was called AtlasWarrior Online? You mean the very reason they implemented class-based matching? Yeah, I remember that experience.

In a world without balancing, 6 Atlas + 2 Scouts will be the most effective and safest way to build your team. The Jenners identify the biggest threat, the Atlas's rain LRMs, and then they clean up what's left.

Any other make-up will have a deficit in weapon tonnage, and no amount of cleverness can overcome 6 Atlas' worth of LRM's. The end result is that competitive teams will field a large number of the heaviest possible mech, because there is no reason not to, and you have no guarantee that the other team isn't stacking tonnage.

Edited by tenderloving, 08 November 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[Krivvan]

tenderloving, on 08 November 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

You mean when the game was called AtlasWarrior Online? You mean the very reason they implemented class-based matching? Yeah, I remember that experience.

And even back then Atlases weren't that great. I still maintained back then that you require lighter mechs to win against a proper team. To this day I say that the class-based matchmaker was a mistake.

Also, a lot of the Atlas popularity was due to the masses of new players picking Atlases and using them in games made up of PUGs.

Edited by Krivvan, 08 November 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[Calmon]

Wispsy, on 08 November 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

well unless the hunchbacks are really good and the atlas's are all pretty bad then yes I would expect the atlas team to win....but an atlas team will be severely disadvantaged against a team of 6atlas2jenner....or perhaps 4atlas2gausscat2jenner...but then what if you happen to come up against a light heavy team too...well better throw in 2atlas(or awesome if thats what you like)2gausscat2lighthuntermediums(ilikecenti)2jenner...oh look a a balanced team that can easily defeat 8 atlas and will have good standing against anything else it comes up against too...ofc some people will always think that assault mechs are big and strong and always dominate the field...

No people don't think like this. People think a Jenner is on par with an atlas because a good pilot defeats an average atlas 1:1. So for sure there are some mechanism in the game which give some classes a bonus against others.

BUT don't overestimate this. Currently if you play a jenner and defeat a atlas alone its good for the team because your side still have an atlas. For the Jenner its a big thing! But against 8 atlas with no-real-bonus for defeating a higher class (because match making set you each on par) what will happen?

And even if you think the 1:1 Jenner/Atlas killer can keep this dominance in a bigger picture where 2-3 Atlas focus one jenner. Even the 8x Jenner side have on avarage better chances to win vs. 8x Atlas. The 8xAtlas have by far more better win chances than worse win chances.

And to again: Replace the "8 Atlas" with any combination of just have better chassis or if they really don't match team size against lower sized teams.

It just want to point out that when there are absolute NO restriction in TeamsVsTeam and "8xAtlas" vs "5xHunchback" (to be extreme) is possible people will flame/insult ingame a lot more because they feel cheated. They will fill the forum here because they feel cheated.

Nothing good. This problematic should be clear at least for the logical people in the PGI team. One of them outside marketing/business should understand stuff like this.

[Vila deVere]

Apoc1138, on 08 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

with the current state of the game I would be more worried about a team made entirely of 130kph+ jenners and cicadas

they haven't said how they are going to manage the 8 players queue... I would presume that it would make at least a passing attempt at matching people on classes, but I would also imagine that if no matches are found with a similar makeup that it will keep casting the net wider till it does find a match... however I would also possibly imagine that if 1 team starts doing all 1 mech loadouts, that other teams will be doing it too, so they'll be matched against other 8 man single mech teams most of the time

Yes they have. Teams will 5-8 players and there will no matching for team size or 'mech weight class. Here come the teams of 8 D-DC atlases with LRM15's and Artemis....

[Ultrabeast]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

And even back then Atlases weren't that great. I still maintained back then that you require lighter mechs to win against a proper team. To this day I say that the class-based matchmaker was a mistake.

Also, a lot of the Atlas popularity was due to the masses of new players picking Atlases and using them in games made up of PUGs.

Yeah and due to most of us being founders during constant closed beta wipes and picking the Atlas as our founders mech, having nothing else to play.

[Calmon]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Absolutely, at least if that skill level is up to a certain level.

At the moment the simplest strategy is everyone sticking together as a ball and focus firing. This is not what competent teams just do. 8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if games consist of everyone just sticking together in a firing line.

Having quicker mechs is one of the most powerful things in the game right now. Imagine if you had a team of 8 Atlases against a team of 5 Atlases and 3 Jenners. The 8 Atlases literally would not have any option to leave their base. If they all leave, the Jenners will force them back. If they split up the firepower of the 5 Atlases will win out and the Jenners can easily win a duel against 2 Atlases.

The only option is for the Atlases to defend, but defending teams have the inherent disadvantage of not being able to focus their fire for the initial stages because the enemy team chooses where they want to attack.

Also, it's not just speed, it's maneuverability. Perhaps you haven't seen this since it's easy to blame lack of collisions and lag now, but light mechs are able to duel an Atlas 1v1 and come out winning unscratched. Jump jets also allow light mechs to beat Atlases. A Jenner can continue jumping over an Atlas and landing in cover over and over again without a chance of getting hit because of the Atlas' firing angle.

Medium mechs are not quick enough to do what light mechs do (barring the cicada) but they are quick enough to quickly move to support teammates that need help and they are quick enough to retreat. An Atlas, although it has the most armour, is one of the most vulnerable mechs in the entire game because once it has been committed it has no chance to retreat.

Smaller and faster mechs are the best mechs to defend a base with. The only way you're defending the base with an Atlas team is by leaving Atlases behind, but doing so means that a scout can take one look at the base then call for the team to just easily destroy the group of 6 Atlases.


8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if you think of the game in the most simplistic way possible comparing DPS and armour only.

And this is not even getting into scouting and spotting.

We also don't stick together most of time, it always a decision. I just brought this up to make "teamplay" more clear...


I don't want to discuss this out on this level because its not the point.

Just try to understand: Random matched TEAMS will have get matched against other random TEAMS. Other than currently the matchmaking make it unbalanced. So team a) MAY need to destroy several class levels more to win. If teamsize isn't match as well it even may need to win 1:2 for each mech. This means even you may not believe me that the win stats for a team with the higher classes/more team members will win to a higher chance.

This will let teams change: Mechs get heavier, it tend to not start at 5 players. And NO, I don't say everybody will do it, I just say on average the teams will go this way to prevent this unbalancing. This leads to the problem that some mechs classes will get less played as others.

[IQwrassler]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Absolutely, at least if that skill level is up to a certain level.

At the moment the simplest strategy is everyone sticking together as a ball and focus firing. This is not what competent teams just do. 8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if games consist of everyone just sticking together in a firing line.

Having quicker mechs is one of the most powerful things in the game right now. Imagine if you had a team of 8 Atlases against a team of 5 Atlases and 3 Jenners. The 8 Atlases literally would not have any option to leave their base. If they all leave, the Jenners will force them back. If they split up the firepower of the 5 Atlases will win out and the Jenners can easily win a duel against 2 Atlases.

The only option is for the Atlases to defend, but defending teams have the inherent disadvantage of not being able to focus their fire for the initial stages because the enemy team chooses where they want to attack.

Also, it's not just speed, it's maneuverability. Perhaps you haven't seen this since it's easy to blame lack of collisions and lag now, but light mechs are able to duel an Atlas 1v1 and come out winning unscratched. Jump jets also allow light mechs to beat Atlases. A Jenner can continue jumping over an Atlas and landing in cover over and over again without a chance of getting hit because of the Atlas' firing angle.

Medium mechs are not quick enough to do what light mechs do (barring the cicada) but they are quick enough to quickly move to support teammates that need help and they are quick enough to retreat. An Atlas, although it has the most armour, is one of the most vulnerable mechs in the entire game because once it has been committed it has no chance to retreat.

Smaller and faster mechs are the best mechs to defend a base with. The only way you're defending the base with an Atlas team is by leaving Atlases behind, but doing so means that a scout can take one look at the base then call for the team to just easily destroy the group of 6 Atlases.

8 Atlas teams are only overpowered if you think of the game in the most simplistic way possible comparing DPS and armour only.

And this is not even getting into scouting and spotting.

YES! This analysis is 100% correct.

[Calmon]

Oh man its really difficult with you.

I made the "8xAtlas" topic because I can't say the more complicate part behind it in the headline in a good way.

Is it really that difficult to understand what I want to say/discuss? Do you really don't see the problem behind? Why are you talking about 2xlight, 6xaltas is better than 8xatlas? It let me believe you either don't want understand or just can't understand.

[FrostPaw]

If we assume all skill levels are equal (it's easy to say a light mech can beat an assault if the assault pilot is inexperienced) A team of 800 tons will smash a team of significantly less tonnage.

A lone Jenner can stand at the feet of an Atlas or run around it in circles and survive quite a while shooting it in the back, how do you manage that if 7 other Atlas are focus firing you?

The assumption for light mech dominance is always light mech pilot has skills and friends, what if assault mech pilot also has skills and friends?

Collision is something most new players have no concept of either, I get the impression light mech pilots since open beta would spend a lot of time picking themselves off the floor when it goes back in.

[Krivvan]

FrostPaw, on 08 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

The assumption for light mech dominance is always light mech pilot has skills and friends, what if assault mech pilot also has skills and friends?

Then you ignore the pile of Atlases moving at a snail's pace and simply go for the cap.

[FrostPaw]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Then you ignore the pile of Atlases moving at a snail's pace and simply go for the cap.

So you're agreeing the light mechs can't win a fight? Skill levels being equal?

[FerretGR]

Am I the only one who thinks waking up against a team of 8 Atlases sounds awesome? Keep picking your gigantic, plodding behemoths, and thinking they're the be-all and end-all of mech combat; I love the sound they make when they hit the ground after being cored from behind.

[Matist]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

And please before you start explaining that every mech has a role: it has for sure! BUT please understand: a hunchback has only a role if matchmaking consider he's just 50 tons in any way (tons/class matching)

Huh, I'm sorry but this just isn't correct. I pilot a HBK-4SP full time and I squeal with glee when I have a 1 on 1 fight with an Atlas. They're easy prey when you're going 90 KPH and can fire in a 160 degree arc.

Against a pack, yes it'd be a different story. But that 8 man Atlas team has zero mobility, zero intel, and zero ability to rapidly respond to events. How are they going to target enemy LRM that's 900 meters away behind cover and raining down death from spots given to them via jenners?

Also, all that armor means a lot less when you have large hit boxes and the enemy can easily target your sections. And all that firepower doesn't really help when you can't bring it down on out of sight targets or mechs that move faster than you can twist.

You need lights to scout and you need mediums to chase off enemy scouts and run quick tackle on long range snipers/LRM. The game is already fairly well balanced.

[Calmon]

FerretGR, on 08 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks waking up against a team of 8 Atlases sounds awesome? Keep picking your gigantic, plodding behemoths, and thinking they're the be-all and end-all of mech combat; I love the sound they make when they hit the ground after being cored from behind.

You can say the same about LRMs in moment. At one point you start to hate it because everybody uses it and you realize there must be a reason for them to use it.

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Krivvan]

FrostPaw, on 08 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

So you're agreeing the light mechs can't win a fight? Skill levels being equal?

What? I'm saying light mechs can win smaller fights, but lose larger fights. However, their speed allows them to choose to not even fight at all to win a game or give them better odds.

Are you insinuating that you must win every game by lining yourself up with enemy mechs and fighting them?

[FrostPaw]

No I'm saying All arguments for Light team victory revolve around Atlas team "losing" through a mistake, in your example over extension. Nobody has a scenario for how Light team beats Atlas team without Atlas making a mistake, which must mean everyone accepts the Light team is at a disadvantage.

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

What? I'm saying light mechs can win smaller fights, but lose larger fights. However, their speed allows them to choose to not even fight at all to win a game or give them better odds.

Are you insinuating that you must win every game by lining yourself up with enemy mechs and fighting them?

[FerretGR]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

You can say the same about LRMs in moment. At one point you start to hate it because everybody uses it and you realize there must be a reason for them to use it.

I love the LRM boats too. Gangs of them hanging together thinking they're invincible these days. A lance of scouts stripping off Cat wings and back armor from Awesomes and Atlases solves that problem. If they keep LRMing they die, if they stop LRMing to pay attention to the scout lance the same is accomplished from the perspective of our heavies.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm going to go with there will be nothing to prevent it. There are units that do field companies of Atlases. Steiner anyone? Right now we only have two choices of Assault Mechs so the majority will take the BFM. Once we get Thunderhawks you will see a huge paridyme shift. But first there will be the Devastator!