118 replies to this topic

[AlixX]

As the OP already stated there should be a maximum tonnage on the premade 8 player team. You could see it as your teams dropship. The maximum tonnage could be between 300-500 tons. Teams would have to think about there team load out. U can max it out or go full lights if you think thats the way to victory.

Who in favor?

And on the whole jenner vs atlas,1v1 and ''better pilot skills''. This are premade games, focus fire will decimate balls deep tactics.

Edited by AlixX, 08 November 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[Purlana]

FerretGR, on 08 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Gangs of them hanging together thinking they're invincible these days.

Those LRM boats are silly. Each LRM boat should stay ~200 - 300 meters in range of each other. When the lights come to attack 1, the other 2 bring the pain.

Friendly lights can come back to mop up the leftovers.

[Wispsy]

if you think giving up all your speed will give you a tactical advantage..... well each to their own!

[Krivvan]

FrostPaw, on 08 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

No I'm saying All arguments for Light team victory revolve around Atlas team "losing" through a mistake, in your example over extension. Nobody has a scenario for how Light team beats Atlas team without Atlas making a mistake, which must mean everyone accepts the Light team is at a disadvantage.

But it's not the Atlas team making a mistake, it's the Atlas team being incapable of winning out. They cannot move all out or they lose to light mechs. They cannot split the team or they will lose to light mechs. This leaves their only option as sticking together tightly in their base in which case if the light mech team has even a single heavier support mech the Atlas team will lose.

[Purlana]

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

This leaves their only option as sticking together tightly in their base in which case if the light mech team has even a single heavier support mech the Atlas team will lose.

Why is that? You don't think 8 Atlas with AMS can handle 1 LRM boat?

Edited by Purlana, 08 November 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Viper69]

I would hope there is some sort of even drops. Think though unless we all drop using the same class format if they dont have unresricted drops the waits for said drops will take forever. Or they could make your group take a predefined set of classes, 2 of each class for example.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

So you don't believe that a half-brained 8xAtlas team will stomp over your well structured half-brained 2xeach class team?

What exactly let you think this? Both teams act as team so for sure they both focus fire, stick together and priorize the targets.

Team A have just more than double health than Team B.
Team A has more DPS than Team B
Team A has more variances in weapon use (usually atlas uses both close and range weapons in one mech to use the heatsinks optimal)
Team B has just quicker mechs

So you really believe when both act as team on same skill Team B has the same chance to win this? Why? In every game system the Atlas would bring you more value (TT) in the battle. They reflect this with "Battle Points" which also consider other factors.

I'd go as far to say that in the current game format it would be more difficult to win if you were massively out weighed. The 8 Atlas team can sit at their base and wait for you to come to them. However, one response to this would be a fast light spotting for indirect LRM fire. Pick off an Atlas and then rinse and repeat.

Another thing to consider is we are going to get a new game type soon. Granted my following points are mostly guesswork, but the seem reasonable from the information out there. There will be multiple points on the map to control. You cant dominate 2 or 3 points on the map with 8 Assaults. The smaller faster team will just end up out capping you.

If you split your Assault force up to defend 2 or 3 points on the map, the lighter team with the scout (information wins battles) will be able to tell you how the heavy team is set up. You take your faster mechs and go pummel one of the points. Now the 800ton team is down a few assults and will get out capped. The heavier team will never be able to respond in time.

[Spencley]

an option to select your 8 mans group of tonnage from a list of choices would be pretty cool. Between your team you have to devide up the tonnage using the mechs you can find. You may enter under tonnage if you wish but not over tonnage. Kind of like the Eve AT were they are given a bracket of points each ship is worth there points and you may come in under points for a small bonus

[FrostPaw]

I don't see Atlas as having a 1:1 ratio vs light mechs, therefore they could split their team, maybe not within the first 5 minutes of the match, but certainly once they down a few lights who can't win anything either by just sitting on their base. It's the Atlas team that can win or lose, the light team has to play for a draw by not engaging or relying on the Atlas team to make a grave error on their strategy.

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

But it's not the Atlas team making a mistake, it's the Atlas team being incapable of winning out. They cannot move all out or they lose to light mechs. They cannot split the team or they will lose to light mechs. This leaves their only option as sticking together tightly in their base in which case if the light mech team has even a single heavier support mech the Atlas team will lose.

[Krivvan]

FrostPaw, on 08 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

I don't see Atlas as having a 1:1 ratio vs light mechs, therefore they could split their team, maybe not within the first 5 minutes of the match, but certainly once they down a few lights who can't win anything either by just sitting on their base. It's the Atlas team that can win or lose, the light team has to play for a draw by not engaging or relying on the Atlas team to make a grave error on their strategy.

So...only when the light team makes a mistake?

8 Light mechs will win out against 4 Atlases, that's an absolute guarantee. There's no way to split the team of 8 without leaving 4 or less somewhere.

[FrostPaw]

No only when the light does anything that isn't passive.

Krivvan, on 08 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

So...only when the light team makes a mistake?

[197mmCannon]

I thought I remembered them posting something about a "drop of the week" system.

Like this weeks drop would be 1 assault, 2 heavies, 3 mediums, and 2 lights. Every 8 man premade would follow those guidelines.

I could be wrong but I swear I saw that somewhere.

I would like a system like that though.

I could also see them eventually implementing a WoT style system where you have three classes of drops.

Heavy drop would max out at 600 tons, Medium drop would max out at 400 tons, and Light drop would max out at 200 tons. You would only play against premades of the same drop class.

I'm just spit-******* with the numbers, haven't actually done any math on it so don't focus on that.

*edit* apparently I triggered the censor... so "shooting from the hip" ? is that allowed?

Edited by Daemian, 08 November 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Enigmos]

I'd also like to point out that the proposal to leave the premade drops up to the player is only phase II.

It is a good thing to learn experientially whether premade teams will be canny with their composition or casual. There is a strong tendency in most groups to let their pilots take along whatever chassis they are perfecting, so long as it isn't a tournament. That tendency is likely to continue in Phase II... if it isn't considered a tourney-calibre match. Other hand there will be teams who are rigorous and treat every match as if it were tourney.

Personally, I think they should keep their Phase II plan of leaving team composition in the control of the team. I think MWO is a player-driven team game, and artificial limitatations like enforced 2-2-2-2 composition would violate that general principle without cause. If experience demonstrates otherwise then for the good of the game I'd accept their findings, but it should at least be tried and measured.

[WarRats]

The team of 8 atlas would have to leave the base or divide up their unit. If they sit and play defense most smart teams would not attack leading to a bunch of TIES. If you want the best base defenders yes choose 8 atlases and yeah you wont get many loses but your not going to get any wins unless the other team is willing to let you destroy their mechs.

The other team never has to charge into your 8 atlases sitting at the base.

If you do decide to split up your 8 atlases then other teams will be able to win because there is an alternate method of winning besides destroying everyone.

[Sprouticus]

I consider myself a good DC, and I salivate at the idea if an 8x Allas drop group. Or even a 6 Atlas/Awesome drop group. I will tear them apart EVERY time.

To show you what I mean, here are some examples. I am assuming equal skill and in a 1v1 an Atlas can beat any other mech, the worst case scenario (and one I dont believe currently)


8 atlas vs 2x2x2x2

Option 1
Atlai move up as a group to engage.
Response. Track them using superior scouting. Send both mediums and a light wide out of sensor range to just outside their base. when they are roughly 1000m from base, have the 3 at base do a 3man cap in roughly 45s, joined by the 4th scout ASAP.. We cap long before they can even engage except maybe river city. The remaining 4 mechs might end up as sacrifical lambs to slow them down in RC

Additional options: If they are all LR you can rush them and be at an advantage. If they are mixed you can probably isolate 1-2 and be at an advantage. If they are all SR you snipe from range. But the base cap is almost always the better bet.

Option 2
Atlai leave 1 person at base
Response. Same exact plan, except the mediums and 1 light engage the lone atlas and destory him. The rest can't get back to help him. If they return to base everyone retreats an now you have the exact same as when you started except they are down 1. If not you cap.

Option 3
Atlai leave 2 at base
Response. If the 2 at base at LR, same as #1. . If they are 1 LR 1 SR, you kill the SR while minimizing the effect of the SR OR you send a 2nd scout to help before you engage. Again, the bigs on your team might be bait/sacrifices.

Option 4: Turtle
If they turtle, things get a bit trickier

Response
If you outnumber them in LR, stick to LR and use the LR advantage to go up by 2-3 mechs, then send in the SR to mop up. The primary targets will be the remaining LR mech, because even if your infighters lose your LR can then maintain distance and win the day.

If you outnumber them in SR, you rush them (using terrain to minimize the impact). You can either hit their LR first, trying to give your LR mechs an advantage, know you will prolly lose your SR group. Or send your lights against their LR and try to take out the SR. I like the first option but it depends on the terrain, etc.

But what if they take 6 atlas and 2 scouts instead??

Option 1:They move up and scouts act as harassers
Response: Use your scouts and mediums to take out their scouts. you may have to pull them into a spot they cant get support. Other options include 1 scout on their base to pull 1-2 scouts back, If they send 2 back you have 7v6, If they send 1 back you can try to take out their other scout with 1 light and mediums.

Option 2: They use lights as a screen, and anti-scout force
Response: This is a tough one. If they move up slowly and carefully, your scouts cant get behind them. If they split their scouts (which they sort of have to for that role), I would put both scouts in 1 hunt group as they have to split their scouts up. If they move both scouts together, you split yours up and do an end around.

Once the scouts are down, you are in the same scenarios as #1, except you are up 8v6 (or maybe 7v6 if they kill one of yours).


What if they bring more lights or mediums?

Then it is not an 8 atlas group and your concern is not founded. Im not going to give you all my secrets....

Edited by Sprouticus, 08 November 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[Sprouticus]

I would like to point out that the fact that we are even having this discussion means PGI has does a good job in balancing different weight classes.

[Matist]

For PUGs I think a tonage vs tonage system makes sense. For premades I'd personally like to see it kept wide open for players to design their own units and have it be anything goes.

Basically build the game and let the premades decide how to play it. If it becomes an issue where everyone is being forced to field assaults then look into a fix. Either do matched tonages or look into enhancing the other mech roles more.

But I thinking trying to deal with it now is solving a problem that doesn't exist yet.

[Krivvan]

FrostPaw, on 08 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

No only when the light does anything that isn't passive.

But the mistake the Atlas team can make is doing anything that isn't passive. It's the same thing for the light team!

[silentD11]

Calmon, on 08 November 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

To prevent another storm to the forum for a very obviously problem I want to discuss it before coming out:

What is the plan of PGI to prevent 8 men-teams of Atlas to join the queue and get matched against 8 hunchbacks for example? Or if not even the mech number needs to match to prevent 8 Atlas vs. 5 Hunchbacks?

You're starting this entire thing off based off a fundamentally unsound assumption, which is that tonnage is what makes a mech good at killing or effective in it's given role. That isn't the case at all.

In the case of an Atlas it's not good at scouting, spotting, or rapid movement to support it's team. It's an extremely limited chassis. Sure you'll bring a lot of fire power and survivability to the match, but at the cost of everything else. While this may let you beat times that are poorly constructed it will fall apart rather quickly against more balanced teams that can adapt.

More importantly let's keep in mind that how strong a build is hasn't had much to do with on it's tonnage since closed beta. This is largely because a lot of the heavier weapons (PPC/ERPPC, AC20, Large Pulse) that a heavier chassis would allow to equip range from being horrible (PPC/ERPPC), not the best of their given type (AC20), or second rate compared to other weapons in their class (LL vs ML vs SL). So all that extra tonnage simply allows you to take worse weapons. So, woohoo more tonnage to take worse weapons.

Atlas were eaten alive by gaussapults. Why this happened wasn't hard to figure out. At the time dual guass was (still is) better than any other ballistic option and an Atlas couldn't take it. If you tried PPC's, well they suck and you'd get steam rolled. Atlas also got eaten alive by fast hunchback 4p's because they could mount more small and medium lasers and move quicker, the Atlas being able to take large lasers put it at a disadvantage if you tried that. So 8 Atlas vs 8 Huchbacks, I'd have put my money on the fast Hunchbacks every single time.

All that extra tonnage on an Atlas isn't a big deal when very few of the heavier weapons are competitive or even good compared to their lighter variants. Until something changes in this game where heavier weapons offer an advantage over the others tonnage will remain less of an issue than you think.

There's really only one or two Atlas builds that are fairly effective because of this. The Atlas simply lacks enough hard points to effectively boat the best weapons in a class. And while the extra tonnage should buy you stronger weapons in each class, instead it gets you far less effective weapons across a few classes.

[Calmon]

silentD11, on 08 November 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

You're starting this entire thing off based off a fundamentally unsound assumption, which is that tonnage is what makes a mech good at killing or effective in it's given role. That isn't the case at all.

In the case of an Atlas it's not good at scouting, spotting, or rapid movement to support it's team. It's an extremely limited chassis. Sure you'll bring a lot of fire power and survivability to the match, but at the cost of everything else. While this may let you beat times that are poorly constructed it will fall apart rather quickly against more balanced teams that can adapt.

More importantly let's keep in mind that how strong a build is hasn't had much to do with on it's tonnage since closed beta. This is largely because a lot of the heavier weapons (PPC/ERPPC, AC20, Large Pulse) that a heavier chassis would allow to equip range from being horrible (PPC/ERPPC), not the best of their given type (AC20), or second rate compared to other weapons in their class (LL vs ML vs SL). So all that extra tonnage simply allows you to take worse weapons. So, woohoo more tonnage to take worse weapons.

Atlas were eaten alive by gaussapults. Why this happened wasn't hard to figure out. At the time dual guass was (still is) better than any other ballistic option and an Atlas couldn't take it. If you tried PPC's, well they suck and you'd get steam rolled. Atlas also got eaten alive by fast hunchback 4p's because they could mount more small and medium lasers and move quicker, the Atlas being able to take large lasers put it at a disadvantage if you tried that. So 8 Atlas vs 8 Huchbacks, I'd have put my money on the fast Hunchbacks every single time.

All that extra tonnage on an Atlas isn't a big deal when very few of the heavier weapons are competitive or even good compared to their lighter variants. Until something changes in this game where heavier weapons offer an advantage over the others tonnage will remain less of an issue than you think.

There's really only one or two Atlas builds that are fairly effective because of this. The Atlas simply lacks enough hard points to effectively boat the best weapons in a class. And while the extra tonnage should buy you stronger weapons in each class, instead it gets you far less effective weapons across a few classes.

If you can't understand that tons "on average" matters go to some theoretical extremes: 8x1000 tons on one 8x5 tons on the other. The 8x5 are double as fast as the 8x1000 tons.

Would you accept the simple fact that 8x1000 tons are far better than 8x5 tons or would you like to discuss with me strategies how the 8x5 tons still can win?

I can"t prove that they will win in 99,9999% cases so how should I show it to you?

If the difference gets closer together its less visible for everybody but still existing!

Edited by Calmon, 08 November 2012 - 07:43 AM.