45 replies to this topic

[RL Nice]

I'm not asking whether it would ever be legally acceptable, since it's obviously not, but what about morally?

For instance, if you're boycotting Mel Gibson films on the basis of his many politically incorrect comments, but you feel a real need to see Braveheart again. Would you torrent it so that you can watch it without supporting him?

Or what if there's a game that's abandonware, the developer is no longer making money off of it, and it's rare enough that you can't find copies of it on eBay (or other such sites)?

Or if you intend on trying out a game but no official demo has been released?

Well?

EDIT: For the third question, let's assume you'd be willing to pay full price for the game if you like it.

Edited by RL Nice, 19 April 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

So protest by theft...? No

I just withhold spending my money on their product.

[Aegis Kleais]

There is never any justification for piracy.

Pirates will ALWAYS have an excuse as to why they chose to pirate something, but it's just that, an excuse. They'll say things like "Well, it's so expensive, I can't afford it" (what entitles you to something you cannot afford?) or "They did not offer a trial, so I am using a pirated copy to see if I like it (No excuse, if they don't provide a trial, then that's their fault, and they'll lose sales based on that action) Besides, especially for the latter, even if they LIKED the product, they would use it and (surprise, surprise) fail to pay for it on the honor system.

Pirates always have feelings of entitlement. As if they have a sound logical reasoning which is justification enough for them to break the law or be treated in a better light.

For your examples...

If you're boycotting Mel Gibson but then watch Braveheart, you're a sellout. You spoke a good game but you couldn't back it up. For example, I said though I loved Mass Effect 2 and Battlefield 2, I wouldn't buy the games because of EA/Origin's restrictive policies, and to this day, as much as I want to play ME3 and BF3, I haven't bought them. You have to have the willpower to stand by your convictions or your word means nothing. Acquiring something illegally and saying "I stuck it to them because I got the product and didn't pay for it" just comes down to "Look at me, I stole something."

Pirates are a generation of Immediate Gratification and selective elitism. I've heard TONS of doozies of excuses when it comes to how they feel they had a right to break laws in order to get something they want. They never put themselves in the other person's shoes. Intellectually, children have this limitation (they cannot see beyond their own personal world)

On a side note, sorry about getting into the legal end of it, but of your examples, only the Mel Gibson was a "moral" question, the last 2 examples you gave were actually legality-based piracy issues.

Edited by Aegis Kleaisâ„¢, 19 April 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

This week I "pirated" the UEFA Champions league Semi - Final Games. (Football/Soccer)

If I lived in another country in the world, I would be able to watch the beautiful game for free. Super Bowl? Free. World Series? Free. Daytona 500? Free. I'm sorry my country is unenlightened to the best game in the world, and I'm not going to encourage it by paying $12 a month for Fox Soccer Channel.

Edit: I did not pirate the Fox broadcast, but another from another country.

Edited by Technoviking, 19 April 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Rambo Calrissian]

Aegis Kleais™, on 19 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

There is never any justification for piracy.

* I don't agree *

Anyways ... everyone has to answer moral questions for himself.
And the world would be a better place, if people would actually do that, instead of hiding behind the guidelines of law and society.
Take responsibility and don't lie to yourself as you lie to other people (Speaking of excuses for pirating stuff. At least be honest to yourself. That way you will develop a moral and act after it sooner or later.).

Edited by Paul Inouye, 19 April 2012 - 08:45 PM.
Potty mouths are not permitted to post potty sayings.

[MagnusEffect]

I go by one simple rule that seems to fit pretty well with me:

If you like a product... if you enjoy a product... buy it.

Starving artists can only starve for so long.

I may pirate occasionally, but usually only in cases where there was no free trial option. I like to get a taste before committing. Why would you ever buy music without first being familiar with the artist? If I like what I see/hear, I buy it... without exception.

Outright stealing from creators with no intention of reciprocating (even when you really like it) is as true of an @sshole move as they come.

Stealing from publishers (who sometimes in effect steal from creators) is a totally different and more nuanced subject that I am not prepared to go into. Instead, I will link this as a fine explaination of what I mean:
http://www.escapistm...e-One-Copyright
(warning... lots of f-bombs and pics o' d.i.l.d.o.s in the video. Love ya Jim! )
The last minute and a half is probably the most important part.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 19 April 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Rambo Calrissian, on 19 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

********

Anyways ... everyone has to answer moral questions for himself.
And the world would be a better place, if people would actually do that, instead of hiding behind the guidelines of law and society.
Take responsibility and don't lie to yourself as you lie to other people (Speaking of excuses for pirating stuff. At least be honest to yourself. That way you will develop a moral and act after it sooner or later.).

Watch your mouth. If you're intellectually incapable of discussing a topic in a mature way, a forum may not be the best place for you. If you (incorrectly) felt that my personal code of honor somehow applies to you, it doesn't. Feel free to have your own, and I'll belittle it thoroughly.

Edited by Paul Inouye, 19 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.
There's that word again.

[Dirk Le Daring]

I thought this was going to be about the pirates in the Battletech universe.

[LackofCertainty]

Morally, I'd say the only legitimate pirating is for stuff that is unavaible for you to purchase.

Example: Fan-subbed anime and abandon-ware.

The caveat here, however is that you need to purchase them legitimately if they later become available for purchase. If the anime gets licensed, you have to buy it or you're a dirty thief. If the game gets re-released [via gog or steam for example] you have to purchase it or you're a dirty thief.

To be fair, I'm a dirty thief at times, myself, so take this all with a grain of salt.

[Kenyon Burguess]

your parents should have explained this to you. so i will keep it brief.

piracy = bad
hacking = bad
drugs = bad
murder, rape, pillaging = bad, bad, bad
coupons for street walkers = bad

if it wasnt, everyone would be doing it to you.

Edited by Geist Null, 19 April 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

Geist Null, on 19 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

your parents should have explained this to you. so i will keep it brief.

piracy = bad
hacking = bad
drugs = bad
murder, rape, pillaging = bad, bad, bad
coupons for street walkers = bad

if it wasnt, everyone would be doing it to you.

Whoa whoa whoa. I think you're overexaggerating a bit here. I mean the other stuff you listed isn't even on the same plane as coupons for street walkers. *shudders* Think of the children.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 19 April 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[RL Nice]

Geist Null, on 19 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

your parents should have explained this to you. so i will keep it brief.

piracy = bad
hacking = bad
drugs = bad
murder, rape, pillaging = bad, bad, bad
coupons for street walkers = bad

if it wasnt, everyone would be doing it to you.

Not everything is that black and white. If you feel this way, you should at least explain your rationale behind this opinion beyond a simple "everyone would be doing it to you" (for the piracy, that is. This thread isn't about the other stuff you mentioned).

[Catamount]

For what it's worth, I think it's immature to judge maturity based on whether someone wants to say "********". Let's not reduce this to "He said a potty word; oh noes"

As for the discussion, I don't really believe in the notion of morality as it's being preached here. Claiming something is intrinsically right or wrong from a subjective ethical standpoint isn't of great use, imo.


However, as a utilitarian, I find pirating to be counterproductive. It really does rob money from developers, which makes it harder for them to continue to make products. Is it ever justified, however? Well, justified is a complicated word, but if one has already committed to not buy a game because the developer has taken actions to make it unattractive (require Origin, give a game ME3's ending... etc), then they won't get the sale one way or the other, whether it's pirated or just not obtained. In my opinion, if a developer wants my money, they should make it worth my while to spend, and if they actively work in a fashion that does the opposite, then pirating is effectively the same as just not having as far them not earning their pay. It's tangibly no better or worse. I don't pirate often myself (usually just older stuff that can't be bought reasonably anymore), but if someone wants to in "protest", I can't usefully morally judge them, since that's subjective, and I can't find a utilitarian argument against it, so I really don't care.

When a company does do a satisfactory job, however, it is in the consumer's interest to pay the money that allows the continuation of titles from that developer, and generally, while I don't care if an individual finds it acceptable to pirate, I will note that overall, it's in society's best interest to stop all pirating as much as possible, insofar as attempts are reasonable, since I highly doubt that the tangible benefits of pirating outweigh the costs, as far as society is concerned.

Edited by Paul Inouye, 19 April 2012 - 08:47 PM.
There it is again... whoever took it off the filter has some splainin to do. >:(

[neodym]

I am dirty pirate hoe and I dont even hide it

Geist Null, on 19 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

your parents should have explained this to you. so i will keep it brief.

piracy = bad
hacking = bad
drugs = bad
murder, rape, pillaging = bad, bad, bad
coupons for street walkers = bad

if it wasnt, everyone would be doing it to you.

drugs arent bad ..... war on drugs,propaganda and whole current politics on drugs are bad

[MagnusEffect]

I remember that girl in the pink. You think she's legal now?

[Calx]

in music, although with conditions.

i love buying one or several copies (as gifts) of a CD and knowing i'm funding artists i like, or seeing them live as a result. there's no greater pleasure than bestowing money on something you really like or have a passion for, it's the sole reason why kickstarter exists.

i don't feel the same logic applies as well to software piracy, since general games are being made to be so disposable. where i feel like pirating music equates to listening to the radio or test driving a car, software piracy is like stuffing packs of beef jerky in your jacket and splitting. though there are always exceptions. i feel like free-to-play game models are the perfect marriage of how i treat music and how many treat games, while keeping everything legal and lucrative.

regardless of any of the above, i don't believe software piracy results in the amount of losses that the games industry would exaggerate. most of the people pirating were never buyers to begin with, and typically won't be. since data is not a finite piece of matter, they could just as soon be conjuring crap from the aether in their computer rooms, not raiding and pillaging games from a warehouse.

art and capitalism are generally tough to combine without bending or compromising one or both.

[Vulpesveritas]

it's not about the other things, but I agree, it's not black-and-white. Piracy may be wrong, but it isn't anywhere near armed robbery or murder on a sale of evils.

[neodym]

MagnusEffect, on 19 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I remember that girl in the pink. You think she's legal now?

dafuq did I just read,lol shes 20 now

Edited by neodym, 19 April 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[LackofCertainty]

Catamount, on 19 April 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

However, as a utilitarian, I find pirating to be counterproductive. It really does rob money from developers, which makes it harder for them to continue to make products. Is it ever justified, however? Well, justified is a complicated word, but if one has already committed to not buy a game because the developer has taken actions to make it unattractive (require Origin, give a game ME3's ending... etc), then they won't get the sale one way or the other, whether it's pirated or just not obtained. In my opinion, if a developer wants my money, they should make it worth my while to spend, and if they actively work in a fashion that does the opposite, then pirating is effectively the same as just not having as far them not earning their pay. It's tangibly no better or worse. I don't pirate often myself (usually just older stuff that can't be bought reasonably anymore), but if someone wants to in "protest", I can't usefully morally judge them, since that's subjective, and I can't find a utilitarian argument against it, so I really don't care.

I disagree, because having people play your game acts as free advertising in most situations. If you are boycotting a game, but download and play it, you are likely to talk to your friends about it. That means that the boycotter is (in a small way) helping that game, which in turn makes the boycotter into a hypocrite. In a multiplayer game, it becomes even more beneficial to the company you're "boycotting" because the best way to get people to continue to play a multiplayer game is to ensure that there's a large playerbase. Iirc Farmville's devs have said that they consider their most valuable asset to be the untold masses that don't pay for their game, because they provide so much advertising that their sheer numbers increases the amount of paying customers they -do- grab.

If a person wants to boycott something they should do it properly. As a historical example, the Boston Tea Party would've been a lot less effective if the boycotters had stolen the tea and drunk it themselves.

[Victor Morson]

I'm going to go ahead and say yes, sometimes it is morally justifiable. Of course not always, but this goes far beyond just "I don't have money to pay for X movie or Y game" into the debate. I'll just list some examples of times I believe that it is honestly acceptable.

• Pirating a game you've already bought. Wait, what? Welcome to the world of copyright hell. I've personally owned games in the past that have had such broken anti-copyright measures, I've had to literally pirate them or at the very least cracks - games I've already purchased, no less! - in order to play them. This trend sounds like it's dying until you figure in the horrors of DRM that, if you need to reinstall the games three times, they remove it from you - or messes like Ubisoft's service. All in all this one rides the gray line, even legally, since you've already purchased the IP but have to circumvent the physical media. Notably this also applies to DRM laden music - I simply cannot blame someone for downloading a CD they own because of protection that refuses to allow them to put it on their music player.
  
• Students and other poor people and commercial programs. This one is almost tacitly condoned by companies at this point because it's a ludicrous situation. Half-way solutions were attempted, failed and mostly shelved. Simply put, most 3D modeling software costs hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, as do 2D editing suites, video editing.. you name it. As such, many small time modders and students simply have to pirate these programs in order to ever get to a point where they could possibly buy them. When the companies do not extend a reasonable hand to people who obviously both need these programs and cannot afford to pay prices that are targeted at professional studios, I can't morally condemn them for downloading it.
  
• Used games versus No Game - If your only options for obtaining a title are used games versus piracy, again, I can't condemn someone for taking the piracy option. Why? Simply put, developers and publishers do not see a single dime on used games. The reason there's such an attempt to stop places like GameStop today is because they exploit this system and hurt the bottom line far, far worse than piracy ever has, despite what publisher PR likes to say. You have to understand how sales work brick & mortar stores - they sell the stores X number of copies, not individuals. So when a place like GameStop purposely under buys and then pushes used games, they completely screw the dev over. I can't feel too bad if someone is unable to obtain a new copy of a game then goes to other channels as a result, at all. It's nice to see places like Steam and Good Old Games trying to rectify this situation and I think many people given the option would take these options.
  
• Pirating TV made unavailable via other channels. This one is probably the most gray and one where arguments are likely to be the strongest, but I can't condemn it. Simply put, TV networks and cable providers hate the internet and refuse to keep up (much of the same problem the RIAA has). Thus if you've noticed, streaming content for new shows varies from decent to completely terrible, with places like Fox trying to hardball services like Hulu in a huge mess. First I'd like to say that watching TV does not help ratings. Unless you have a Nielsen box, you are not supporting your favorite show watching a live airing. Second, digital viewing only helps slightly - but it does help marginally. This is why I'd say anyone should make an effort to watch a commercial supported version of their favorite shows if possible.. that said, if the network is making it hard or impossible to watch a show that you could have seen for free via a TV airing - which you've already missed anyway - literally no one is being hurt going this route. You could argue it may harm DVD sales, but that's not really applicable to catching up on something on a first-run cycle.

Anyway, there are other examples with varying shades of gray in all of them, but I do personally believe there are times where piracy really is not harming the bigger companies or is otherwise not immoral for the user to partake in. As someone who has in fact been in the industry I can see without a doubt I rather see something I worked on downloaded than bought used and I think there's quite a few other devs that would agree with that statement, honestly.

Piracy for the sake of piracy is not what hurts the industry. It's very, very minor - in particular with multiplayer centric titles, which are gimped horribly by it. What actually hurts the entertainment industry in general is piracy in response to their overblown anti-piracy measures that render the purchased product less usable than one that hasn't been. Services like Steam, GoG and Amazon Music have all proven many people will gladly pay for something if they're given a reasonable price and method to do it, but won't if they only have the option of getting a product that actively fights being used in the way you want to.