42 replies to this topic

[RatMortar]

I saw an old thread (several months) talking about this and didn't think it would be a good idea to post on it.

Basically, I want to free up space on my 4G hunchback and have been wondering about using an XL engine. The biggest problem I'm seeing is that almost every game, my AC20 on the right torso is destroyed (people seem to love targetting it).

Does that mean that my mech will be destroyed if someone takes out my AC since both are on the same hardpoint?

[J4ckInthebox]

exactly. the AC/20 is in your right torso, so does a part of your XL engine. if your right torso goes down, your mech is destroyed. but, if your AC/20 get a crit and is destroyed, your XL is not destroyed so your mech should be still standing.

on the other hand, since a hunchback without its hunch is nearly useless, it might be a viable trade-off.

Edited by J4ckInthebox, 08 November 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Comassion]

If you have an XL engine and you lose a side torso, your 'mech is dead. You can still lose the AC/20 and not die (because the AC/20 can be destroyed before the torso section is destroyed), but your 'mech will die faster.

One note - I don't think you can take an XL engine and an AC/20 in a torso due to crit space.

[TheMightyWashburn]

I use the 4p, small laser swayback. I almost never get my shoulders destroyed. You just gotta learn to turn your armored sides to the enemy and retreat. If you are getting your shoulder blown apart it is because you have fallen for the trick of the Hunchie. You are treating that slow medium like its a heavy. You have to use cover and be clever.

[RatMortar]

Comassion, on 08 November 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

If you have an XL engine and you lose a side torso, your 'mech is dead. You can still lose the AC/20 and not die (because the AC/20 can be destroyed before the torso section is destroyed), but your 'mech will die faster.

One note - I don't think you can take an XL engine and an AC/20 in a torso due to crit space.

Yeah, I've been wondering about the crti space too. Since my AC20 takes up all but 2 spots on my right torso, if I upgrade to ferro-fibrous armor, will I no longer be able to carry it?

[J4ckInthebox]

Quote

One note - I don't think you can take an XL engine and an AC/20 in a torso due to crit space.

Yes, i forgot that: you cant put an AC/20 and a XL, the XL takes too much space (3 slots)

Edited by J4ckInthebox, 08 November 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[CodeNameValtus]

You can't fit an AC/20 in a side torso with an XL Engine (XL Engine takes up 3 slots in side torsos, and AC/20 takes 10, you have 12 slots...)

But yes, as an AVID Hunchback player and supporter, taking an XL engine is risky. As the big guns/laser array/missle pods/etc are a very tempting target for your opponents. As taking it out decreases your ability to fight back considerably (usually almost 75% of your damage comes from that hunch).

With an XL engine, you are asking for trouble. I go with Standard Engines all the way, if you need weight savings, look at getting Endo-Steel, and possibly freeing up some tonnage by decreasing your arm/leg armor a tad to squeeze out an extra ton or two.

[fledthescene]

XL engines are risky for precisely that reason. If one of your side torsos are taken out, it counts as a core and you are dead. It can be rewarding if you use the additional speed/tonnage to get in and out of trouble quickly.

It's your choice, but if you like to mix it up, stick with the standard engine: you'll live longer.

[Ghogiel]

I wouldn't do it.

Back when you could fit XL300/325s to 4p hunchbacks it was well worth doing, as you could chase off lights and seriously harass assaults and heavies, cover back cappers, or fast cap yourself. I loved that 4p/4sp fastback.

But you can't go fast enough now to make targeting specific components difficult. In effect all hunchbacks right torsos are routinely the primary focus. If you have an XL your dead at that point. IMO having 2med lasers and 2 legs left is better than dead.

Othera might disagree.

[Rathe]

I use an XL engine with a gauss rifle on my projectile variant hunch (but I use the 4H). I like having 4-5 lasers to back it up.

Since I'm elite hunchbacks, my hunchback goes 90kph with an xl 260. The idea is that a faster hunchback is going to be able to get out of bad situations 'before' losing that side torso. Don't 1v1 in an XL hunch, find a 1v1, turn it into a 2v1, and wreck the guy on the other team.

[Nathan Foxbane]

RatMortar, on 08 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I've been wondering about the crti space too. Since my AC20 takes up all but 2 spots on my right torso, if I upgrade to ferro-fibrous armor, will I no longer be able to carry it?

Unless you have a serious lack of spare space from Endo Steel and DHS you should have no trouble what so ever with ferro-fibrous armor. The criticals for FF and ES float so 'Mechlab crams them into whatever space is available

[RatMortar]

CodeNameValtus, on 08 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

You can't fit an AC/20 in a side torso with an XL Engine (XL Engine takes up 3 slots in side torsos, and AC/20 takes 10, you have 12 slots...)

But yes, as an AVID Hunchback player and supporter, taking an XL engine is risky. As the big guns/laser array/missle pods/etc are a very tempting target for your opponents. As taking it out decreases your ability to fight back considerably (usually almost 75% of your damage comes from that hunch).

With an XL engine, you are asking for trouble. I go with Standard Engines all the way, if you need weight savings, look at getting Endo-Steel, and possibly freeing up some tonnage by decreasing your arm/leg armor a tad to squeeze out an extra ton or two.

But again, wouldn't upgrading to endo-steel take up vital space to keep my AC20?

That's the problem, they say it takes 14 crti spots but they don't say where!

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 November 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Unless you have a serious lack of spare space from Endo Steel and DHS you should have no trouble what so ever with ferro-fibrous armor. The criticals for FF and ES float so 'Mechlab crams them into whatever space is available

thanks for the answer

Edited by RatMortar, 08 November 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Vermaxx]

RatMortar, on 08 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I've been wondering about the crti space too. Since my AC20 takes up all but 2 spots on my right torso, if I upgrade to ferro-fibrous armor, will I no longer be able to carry it?

The crits from endo and armor will fill in wherever you aren't using them. They even move if you put something else there.

Don't take FF armor, it saves 12% weight and doubles your armor costs. It's not worth it. Endosteel is good, saves more weight and doesn't really raise repair costs.

Consider changing the AC20 for a gauss. Gauss has better range, better ammo per ton, better projectile speed, though it does have a slower reload. The major boost is the better projectile speed - you don't need to learn how to lead a target as heavily as with an AC20. The AC20 is really best when you are following an Atlas around and shooting what he shoots.

[RAM]

RatMortar, on 08 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

That's the problem, they say it takes 14 crti spots but they don't say where!

Anywhere - they fill in empty space.


RAM
ELH

[Ghogiel]

RatMortar, on 08 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

That's the problem, they say it takes 14 crti spots but they don't say where!

ES crits can go anywhere

[Corpsecandle]

The problem is that the hunch itself (for the ballistic versions) is such a large hitbox. Even turning and presenting the other side of the mech to your enemy will still ultimately end up taking damage to the ballistic housing because it sticks out so far in front of the rest of your torso. Not to mention the fact that it's the single largest horizontal surface for LRMS to hit. I'd imagine that the laserboat and missile versions don't suffer the same problems, but I'd never through an XL into my founders hunchback.

[CodeNameValtus]

Rathe, on 08 November 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I use an XL engine with a gauss rifle on my projectile variant hunch (but I use the 4H). I like having 4-5 lasers to back it up.

Since I'm elite hunchbacks, my hunchback goes 90kph with an xl 260. The idea is that a faster hunchback is going to be able to get out of bad situations 'before' losing that side torso. Don't 1v1 in an XL hunch, find a 1v1, turn it into a 2v1, and wreck the guy on the other team.

Problem with Gauss Rifle and an XL engine is once the armor is gone on your right torso (which still gets targetted due to size) and they get crits on your Gauss Rifle/XL engine, you still go down like a sack of potatoes, Gauss Rifles explode splashing damage/crits onto that engine. The additional speed, and having a Gauss Rifle doesn't really out weigh the fact that you die to losing the meager armor you have on your side torsos.

Speed isn't really needed for a Gauss Rifle, you'll spend most of your time shooting and moving in and out of cover from a distance, and then trying to finish off with lasers. With AC's you want to get up close and personal. That's when the XL becomes a liability.

[RatMortar]

Vermaxx, on 08 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

The crits from endo and armor will fill in wherever you aren't using them. They even move if you put something else there.

Don't take FF armor, it saves 12% weight and doubles your armor costs. It's not worth it. Endosteel is good, saves more weight and doesn't really raise repair costs.

Consider changing the AC20 for a gauss. Gauss has better range, better ammo per ton, better projectile speed, though it does have a slower reload. The major boost is the better projectile speed - you don't need to learn how to lead a target as heavily as with an AC20. The AC20 is really best when you are following an Atlas around and shooting what he shoots.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I've fully embraced the support role.

[Hauser]

RatMortar, on 08 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I've been wondering about the crti space too. Since my AC20 takes up all but 2 spots on my right torso, if I upgrade to ferro-fibrous armor, will I no longer be able to carry it?

The math is rather simple.

First we count the critical slots we have available and substract the weapons we have put in.

H = 1 - 1 SLas = 0

LA : 8 -1 Mlas = 7
LT: 12 - 3 AC20 Ammo = 9
CT: 2 - 1HS = 1
RT: 12 - 10 AC20 = 2
RA: 8 -1 Mlas = 7

LL: 2 - 2 HS = 0
RL: 2 - 2HS = 0

Free slots = 26

Endo steel and FeroFib take up 14pts each. So you can't have both.

Endo frees up 2.5 tons. Ferrofib frees up ~1.5. Double heatsinks free up 4 tons and still provides a better heat efficiency.

So you are better of with endo steel and double heatsinks

[Rathe]

CodeNameValtus, on 08 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Speed isn't really needed for a Gauss Rifle, you'll spend most of your time shooting and moving in and out of cover from a distance, and then trying to finish off with lasers. With AC's you want to get up close and personal. That's when the XL becomes a liability.

mm, this line of thought is dangerous. What do you think people are going to say when they're getting sniped by a gauss rifle: "Let's close range and kill that sniper." you have to be able to maintain range and stay away from brawls where you're being focused. The strength of my guassback build is that you only fight when it's in your advantage. If they charge you, slam up that throttle and spin your torso so their shots hit your arm or LT instead. With the Hunchback, being rather fragile honestly, it's all about being the surprise attack, hitting them hard,and evaporating.