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Does Improved Tech (Level 2 Tech, Clan Tech) Threaten The Feel And Pace Of The Game?


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Poll: How advanced tech will affect the pace of the game? (43 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about the pace of the game changing as the tech level advances?

  1. Great. As long as the current pace is the endgame pace (6 votes [13.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.95%

  2. Great, if the end game pace is somewhat above what it's now and the low end tech pace is slower tha now (5 votes [11.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.63%

  3. Great, if the low tech game pace is as it's now. (4 votes [9.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.30%

  4. Okay, if I can choose at which tech level or pace I can play (6 votes [13.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.95%

  5. Okay, the pace of the game should change in some matter,I don't care which way. (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

  6. Bad. The pace of the game feels right as it is now. (4 votes [9.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.30%

  7. Bad. The pace of the game needs to be faster, but stable, across the board. (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

  8. Bad. The pace of the game is already too fast and and I don't want it to get faster! (5 votes [11.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.63%

  9. Undecided or it doesn't matter to me. (9 votes [20.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.93%

  10. Something else which doesn't really fit the previous replies. (2 votes [4.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.65%

What Option would you pick if you were to keep the pace of the game stable across all tech levels?

  1. Option 1) Nerf Loadouts (The better the gear of mechs, the worse their heat management issues will become) (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

  2. Option 2) Nerf Tech (Advanced Tech is different, but not necessarily better.) (16 votes [37.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.21%

  3. Option 3) Buff the Defensive Tech (you get more armour if you equip the more advanced armour types, components get tougher) (6 votes [13.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.95%

  4. Option 4) All Mechs should just have more armour and/or internal structure should be increased further (for example, triple the table top rates rather than double) (8 votes [18.60%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.60%

  5. I've got a different idea that I'll elaborate on in my own post. (12 votes [27.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.91%

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#1 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:26 AM

When I think about all the tech that will be introduced, both with the "Star League" tech like Double Heat Sinks and Ultra Cannons, and later the Clan tech with its Timber Wolves and Thors and 2-Crit Double Heat Sinks, I wonder isn't all this ultimately a "threat" to the feel and pace of the game.

I have the impression that most players are happy with the current pace of combat - .e.g how long does it take to kill a mech, how long does a typical engagement last, how fast mechs move.

But the future advances will mostly change one thing about mechs: They can carry more weapons, or more damaging weapons, or have more heat sinks to max their rate of fire and thus their damage output.

On the other hand, there is very little in the way of defensive technology. The variant armour and internal structure types do not increase your armour points, just reduce the cost of maxing out your armour or lowering your weight so you can equip more guns, basically. The only other defensive advantage may be faster engines.

But overall, it seems to me that as the timeline progresses, the pace will be much tighter- an alpha strike with a mech decked out with level 2 tech or a Clan tech may be able to put out more damage than a typical IS mech could do now, and may be able to repeat it faster or perform it more often. Mechs will die faster than now, and/or may move around faster.

I am worried that people will not like it, at least not generally so. It could just change the customer base - people looking for a fast paced game may become attracted once we're deep into CLan tech, and players that like the current pace may eventually drop out or try to find ways to still play with "old tech" to get the pace they like

It seems to me that PGI is worried about the same thing - they already worry that DHS may speed up combat, if I may count that "Jenner cores Atlas in 3 seconds" anecdote that Garth brought up.

Is this desirable? If not, what can we do about it?

If we want to keep the pace of the game stable and mostly indepent of tech advancement, what can we do?

Option 1) Nerf Mech Loadouts
One way to avoid is what PGI seems to consider already - just remove or nerf the part of the "damage" side that enables all tha damage output - nerf heat dissipation. IMO, this is not a good choice, because it just means a lot of mechs and a lot of tech becomes useless and the game's feel is altered significantly.
I call this "nerf mech loadouts" and not just "nerf heat sinks" because this is something just altering heat dissipation does - individual emchs gets weaker, reaching uncontrollable or at least impractical heat levels..

Option 2) Nerf Gear
My preferred approach is probably balancing all the new tech. In a way, that's PGI's way, but I'll also "nerf"/"buff" the heat intensive advanced tech. Instead of IS ER PPCs producing 13 heat, I'd lower their heat down to 9, but also their recycle time to 4 seconds. Clan ER PPCs may still deal 15 damage, but their heat would be 13 and their recycle time 5 seconds. Clan weapons that are lighter than IS equivalents will lower their damage output and otherwise use more similar stats.

Option 3) Buff Defensve Techs
More advanced tech also grants you more hit points. Examples
  • Tech Level 2 and Clan components are more resilient to critical hits than standard components
  • Endo Steel grants more points for internal structure or damage reduction.
  • Ferro Fibrous and Clan Ferro Fibrous grant additional damage reduction or more armour points (allowing you to exceed standard armour values). (For example, FF grants 12 % more armour points per ton, and also 12 % damage reduction)
Option 4) Buff Mech Armour


Simply, across the board, give all mechs more armour and structure. Basically, instead of double table top armour values, triple them, and maybe add also 50 % more internal armour. Basically, balance armour values against the top end damage values, at the cost of "slowing down" low tech combat.


Option 5) Suggest Something!
Being smarter than the average bear, you have a better idea!

What should we do?
Reply to the poll and/or post your thoughts and ideas.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 09 November 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#2 Draco Argentum

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

I like the current pace and would use option 2 to keep it there.

#3 AEgg

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:48 PM

I'd say for clan tech, make a game mode that uses it. People like a lot of mechs, and you would only ever see clan mechs if anything was allowed. I would say a gamemode of 8 IS vs 5 Clan or something similar would work. Don't let the IS players use clan tech, and don't let clan players use IS tech, so the player difference can be made up for with technology.

We could keep the current 8v8 layout, but it would need to change a bit. Matchmaking could either match tech on each side, or you adjust team sizes to account for it. So running a bunch of stock IS mechs could mean your team of 8 plays against a team of 7 with better tech. It would require a robust matchmaker and a large playerbase to work, though.

The only place I really see completely open tech working is in free for all game modes or a community warfare implementation that has VERY strictly limited resources. So you can run a Dire Wolf if you want, but if you lose it that eats up as many cbills as two or three Atlai would have, which hurts your side overall.

#4 Hellcat420

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

if they get away from the cod style gameplay it wont be as much of a factor imo.

#5 Teibidh

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

I think that "events" that introduce the new tech should happen. Eventually, the Clans show up... Star League era tech gets introduced.. You balance this in a couple of ways.

1) Provide an option for people to enter IS contested zones only... They will drop on planets too far in for the Clans to bother with (heh) and thus will only encounter other IS tech opponents. Don't change ANYTHING about it, just restrict what can be piloted there. That way, the whiners who will inevitably cry about how unfair the game has become have a method of play that teaches them that THEY are outclassed, not their mechs.

2) Clan tech is better, overall, but it's not THAT much better. A skilled pilot in comparable tonnage IS equipment can take out a clanner, happens in tabletop, happens in all the video games, happens in the books... Make sure that when the technology is introduced that it's better, but you don't have to make it the same proportions as the tabletop game.... so don't.

3) Make the cost of repairing a mech proportional to the market value of the mech (if it's not already) and make the Clan/SL mechs and their equipment ridiculously expensive. Yes, you can take that Madcat to the fight, but a scratch in the paint will cost you as much as a hunchback's arm. In my mind, if you get blown up in your clan assault mech and your team loses the fight, you should LOSE c-bills. If you win, for that matter, you probably shouldn't do more than break even.

4) Increase rewards for destroying increased tech level mechs/components. Any intelligent merc will require more pay for more hazardous duty. Again, you're increasing the risk level for the people who want to use the fancy stuff, and you're providing a "what's in it for me" for people opposing them.

Honestly, I think these things are the way to go. They don't require you to alter game play, don't require re-balancing things that have only recently become "right" and provide an out for whiners who don't want to earn more CB. The only other thing I would add is make sure that, like everything else, the Clan/SL equipment can be purchased with cbills, otherwise you're adding another Pay-To-Win argument. I personally don't mind laying out cash, but if you make things that are clearly more powerful only available via cash you're unarguably evil. ;)

#6 0d1n

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

Higher tier tech will in some cases be a game changer. I don't see anything wrong with that, in fact I suspect once we get clan double heatsinks they'll replace IS ones altogether.

That being said, all this advanced tech needs to be implemented as a "sidegrade" as it is right now. Clan tech should be a SIDEGRADE as well. Clan lasers, for example, WILL have longer range and likely less weight but produce significantly larger amounts of heat than their IS counterparts. Clan mechs will have significant advantages over IS mechs but I suspect significant flaws as well. Only time will tell when this stuff gets released as to how it is implemented.

#7 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:24 AM

View Post0d1n, on 09 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Higher tier tech will in some cases be a game changer. I don't see anything wrong with that, in fact I suspect once we get clan double heatsinks they'll replace IS ones altogether.

That being said, all this advanced tech needs to be implemented as a "sidegrade" as it is right now. Clan tech should be a SIDEGRADE as well. Clan lasers, for example, WILL have longer range and likely less weight but produce significantly larger amounts of heat than their IS counterparts. Clan mechs will have significant advantages over IS mechs but I suspect significant flaws as well. Only time will tell when this stuff gets released as to how it is implemented.

I can only guess but I don't think the devs really know yet how to do all this - there are so many other things to work on. So, my idea here is to encourage players to think what they want - and if there is some semblance of consensus, maybe there is a way for PGI to pick up on it and ensure that their implementation goes along those lines.

#8 Keifomofutu

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:52 AM

I think clan tech should be handled the same way TT and the lore handles it. Sure they get all the shiny overpowered toys. But they fight outnumbered and/or outweighed.

Sure a madcat can take out an Atlas. But he is often sent against two...

Advanced IS tech is different as there would be no numbers advantage when IS fights IS. I'm ok with some being a direct upgrade, but only if matchmaker takes it into account when pairing teams.

I don't want to see any more of the "one side gets 8 trial mechs vs 8 custom mechs".

Edited by Keifomofutu, 10 November 2012 - 08:53 AM.


#9 Urza Mechwalker

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:03 AM

This is a free to play game. Its n is NOT supposed to be balanced. There will need to be more and more new tech athat make peopel feel that they will fall behidn unless they increase the pace fo their advance, by paying. That is what makes FTP games work. That is why every month in WoT you have a new overpowered tank!

#10 DrxAbstract

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:10 AM

The Clans threaten our very way of life! Die Clanners! ... ... wait...

#11 OpCentar

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:13 AM

The best way of dealing with this would be a tier system.

You start with basic gear, after you gathered enough XP and C-Bills you can advance to better tech but you will only face mechs of the same tech tier.

But it will take a long time before we see anything like that.

#12 Buenaventura

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:16 AM

Maybe they need some kind of BV in order to improve the matchmaking. It would be more like the old - and sometimes plain wrong - CV, since you can't really measure pilot skill like you need for BV.

There is no aspect in clan tech where it is inferior to comparable IS stuff (except for the cost). Just think about how mean the current LRM boats would be if they had clan launchers which only weight 50% of their IS equivalents and have no minimum range.

#13 Vernius Ix

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:17 AM

Dude...

#14 Asatruer

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:19 AM

I fall into the camp of, Clan Tech and Tech 2 should be better than Tech 1 when it is better by the source materials standards, and when it is not it should not be. That said, I think Ferro-Fibrous Armor should deviate and be be at least as good as Endo, which it is not, and has not since it was introduced to BattleTech.
I do not really like options one through four, though a little of 3 since Ferro is just plain bad in TT and MWO. I go for option Five, but I am not smarter than the average bear... well ok, literally, yes... figuratively as an idiom, not particularly in this case. Balance the imbalances in Tech levels through Battle Values, or a battle value like system, maybe a ELO for the gear itself. Matchmaking will then be what does the heavy lifting of balancing, so a match with a low BV Atlas could be better match with a high but equal BV Awesome, rather than (as it is now) an Atlas that would have a high BV getting matched with an Awesome that would have a low BV.

#15 0d1n

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostOpCentar, on 10 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

The best way of dealing with this would be a tier system.

You start with basic gear, after you gathered enough XP and C-Bills you can advance to better tech but you will only face mechs of the same tech tier.

But it will take a long time before we see anything like that.


I'd vastly prefer if there was no tiered system, everything should be balanced to be equal so that build variety is preserved.

#16 OpCentar

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:38 PM

It's not possible to achive perfect gameplay balance when you have de facto power creep levels or new equipement coming in.


Why would you use IS stuff when Clan tech becomes available? sure it will be expensive but that's no way to balance it, do you nerf Clan tech or buff IS stuff? that road leads into broken gameplay as you will have so many variables that will make it impossible not to make some stuff useless and other overpowered.
We are already seeing this happen with DHS, Artemis, Gauss.

A tiered system simplifies it, makes it work but it's very complicated as you would have to essentialy develop 3 games instead of one.

#17 Keifomofutu

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

View PostOpCentar, on 10 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

It's not possible to achive perfect gameplay balance when you have de facto power creep levels or new equipement coming in.


Why would you use IS stuff when Clan tech becomes available? sure it will be expensive but that's no way to balance it, do you nerf Clan tech or buff IS stuff? that road leads into broken gameplay as you will have so many variables that will make it impossible not to make some stuff useless and other overpowered.
We are already seeing this happen with DHS, Artemis, Gauss.

A tiered system simplifies it, makes it work but it's very complicated as you would have to essentialy develop 3 games instead of one.

Personally I would be completely against IS vehicles being able to use clan stuff. Because unless clan stuff was incredibly nerfed would essentially turn every IS mech into a clan mech with a different skin.

The IS didn't reverse engineer much clan stuff till near the end of the invasion anyway. Its not like the clan tech could just plug into an IS mech and work.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 10 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#18 Draco Argentum

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostAsatruer, on 10 November 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Balance the imbalances in Tech levels through Battle Values, or a battle value like system, maybe a ELO for the gear itself.



I am pretty sure floating BV by using an Elo system for it won't work. Equipment is self selected and higher ranked players will preferentially select the better equipment. This should result in powerful equipment being over valued and weak equipment being undervalued. Eventually it'd get to a point where people would use weak equipment to get matched against worse opponents with good equipment and stomp them.

#19 Asatruer

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

View PostDraco Argentum, on 10 November 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I am pretty sure floating BV by using an Elo system for it won't work. Equipment is self selected and higher ranked players will preferentially select the better equipment. This should result in powerful equipment being over valued and weak equipment being undervalued. Eventually it'd get to a point where people would use weak equipment to get matched against worse opponents with good equipment and stomp them.
I was not sure of that idea, which is why I qualified the Elo idea with a "maybe" after suggesting a normal BV system, I just had not done the mental gymnastics to sort out why I was uncertain about Elo. Thanks for doing the legwork.
Still, I think a normal or tweaked BV system would be a good way to help bring to balance imparities in tech tiers.

#20 OpCentar

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:11 PM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 10 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Personally I would be completely against IS vehicles being able to use clan stuff. Because unless clan stuff was incredibly nerfed would essentially turn every IS mech into a clan mech with a different skin.

The IS didn't reverse engineer much clan stuff till near the end of the invasion anyway. Its not like the clan tech could just plug into an IS mech and work.


That would be right, and it should be very expensive and you should matched 1 Clan mech to at least 1.5 or even 2 IS mechs.

However it would never work as everyone would rage "it's P2W Clan chassis with 20+ million cost for a single variant" and overpowered tech which we can't even mount on IS mechs.

And Omnis, think K2s are deadly? try a Clan assault Omni with as many high alpha guns as it can boat.


I don't know PGI thinks of introducing Clan stuff but they will have a hard time keeping to their "every mech has a role".





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