130 replies to this topic

[cyberFluke]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Trust me, even with a 42ms ping it's still hard as hell to hit lights as they just warp around.

You're preaching to the choir here dude. I have to lead Jenners circling me, with lasers, to score damage. I fully understand what you're driving at.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

Aquilus, on 10 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Skirmisher is and should be a viable role for appropriately equipped light mechs. Your claims of behaving like a "mini assault" are absurd, as lights have a fraction of the armour and firepower of assaults. Armour is doubled on *all* mechs, not just lights, so I don't see how that factors into the equation at all.

While i agree you do have supposedly alot less armour in a light than a heavy or assault mech. The massive difference in speed means that bigger mechs are easier to damage because the hit boxes dont suffer as much due to lag as lights do. and ill give you an example of fire power my jenner with 6 medium lasers, this is more fire power than alot of the hunchy and centurion variants and is equal to some heavy chassis.

cyberFluke, on 10 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'm gonna keep saying it till people get it. Light mechs, specifically scouts have had the majority of their role taken away from them. Scout mechs typically had the equipment to relay targettting information to the commander, who ordered mechs to move/attack appropriately. At the minute, we *ALL* have that equipment, so my Awesome is as valid a scout as a Jenner.

I agree that heavier mechs have the equipment to scout, but just having the equipment to do something doesnt mean you should. If an awsome trys to scout he will just wind up dead very quickly, He doesnt have the speed or small size, or hit detection problems to avoid being turned into a dead mech.

So id just say your argument isnt just false its nonsensical too.

Edited by Zakius, 10 November 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

cyberFluke, on 10 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

He's right. If we have to learn to "lag shoot", that means the whole game is balanced in favour of those from the US.

That's been the case for the last 20 years, whether it be the US, Australia, Europe, China, etc... There's always someone with a disadvantage and nobody ever cares unless it's them... go figure.

50ms ping = .05 seconds
200ms ping = .2 seconds
500ms ping = .5 seconds
1000ms ping = 1 second.

The aiming difference between those numbers is literally a handful of pixels... that's quite the balance favor! I'm going to start carrying my change in my back pocket to offset the weight of my belt buckle, because that thing puts me so off balance i'm terrible at my job.

[PanzerMagier]

deputydog, on 10 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

2.0 dhs does not change anything. It means the scouts could fire even more.
You want to kill scouts, build a scout killer or fight with someone who drives one.
Not every mech can kill every other, that is the beauty.

Get a pulse laser/stk mech and hunt them down. An assault is not a scout killer.

Scouts can already fire everything they heave repeatedly (if you built it right). I'd have to say with 2.0 DHS, I could the same, not at the moment. 4 LL would make short work of any would-be scout pilot who thinks he can tango with an assault mech.

I made this thread because I've NEVER had an issue with scouts in the past. They were (and mostly still ARE) easy kills. However I'm seeing scouts getting quite cocky and feeling them selves smugly good because apparently it requires great amounts of skill to use poor netcoding to your advantage.

They're powerful because of a flaw in the game's system. I'm completely okay if it is intended that scouts are supposed to be the ultimate weapon on the battlefield ,but they are NOT. This game is canonically based on BATTLE TECH. As well all understand that battle tech uses light mechs as SCOUTS, NOT as an assault force. It is a viable tactic to use a lance of scouts to put a lance of medium/heavy and maybe even assault mechs into confusion or avert their attention however it is NOT the role of a scout lance to be capable of decimating an entire company of assault mechs. Such feats can only achieved by great skill and a generous amount of luck, NOT through cheap game mechanics. It shouldn't even be practically possible. If your point of view defers from this then clearly you do not understand how this game should be played.

Mechwarrior is based on battle tech, thus I expect of it to be very much like battle tech. Scouts are not supposed be the supreme edge on the battlefield, simple as that.

EDIT:

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

That's been the case for the last 20 years, whether it be the US, Australia, Europe, China, etc... There's always someone with a disadvantage and nobody ever cares unless it's them... go figure.

50ms ping = .05 seconds
200ms ping = .2 seconds
500ms ping = .5 seconds
1000ms ping = 1 second.

The aiming difference between those numbers is literally a handful of pixels... that's quite the balance favor! I'm going to start carrying my change in my back pocket to offset the weight of my belt buckle, because that thing puts me so off balance i'm terrible at my job.

Now double those numbers to incorporate sending information packets BACK to you. Now add the time to which you respond to react and fire. No dash in some poor framerate issue.

Do you know what you have? That 0.5 second just turned into a full second delay. WOAH?! how did that happen? Only an ***** cannot see how small changes can have great effects.

As an example: The awesome used to have a head that anyone could head shot while blindfold. They reduced the hitbox size by only 15%. that means it is now only 85% the original size. Not much of a difference? These days I hardly ever headshot an awesmoe. It's easier to just core them them straight. Hell it's even easier to headshot a catapult/hunchback than an awesome these days.

Edited by PanzerMagier, 10 November 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Genghis Black Death Khan]

Learn how to aim. That is all.

[rythex]

It's just laughable that all these guys driving the lights assume they're awesome. No.. you're not.. If this game had decent netcode (which it doesn't) you'd be literally legged 270m away from my AC20, but as it stands, the netcode is trash and makes it impossible to hit stuff on the move with the current netcode and firing delays.

speed + junk netcode + firing delay on AC weapons / ballistics + no falling = lame.

Genghis Black Death Khan, on 10 November 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Learn how to aim. That is all.

Can't aim out of bad net-code.

[Galenit]

Zakius, on 10 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

People dont want light s to be easy kills, what they do want however is Lights to fill the battlefield role they are supposed to have. Lights = scouting and recon mechs not Little assault mechs which is where they currently sit. Lights will soon have ECM and BAP allowing them to fill the battlefield role they are supposed to have. A scout uses its speed and manouverability to avoid engaging heavier mechs. A Commando hit in the leg by 2 large lasers should have the leg almost destroyed. But right now because of armour doubling, and lag shield combined with hit detection issues. Right now your lucky if it barely damages it.

I love lights, i love piloting my jenner doing almost 150 KPH but right now i feel nearly immortal. With no collisions of any kind no fear of being knocked over. and double armour im free to behave like a mini assault mech.

The lights dont get enough damage in the moment, as you say, 2-3 hits to the leg and it should be gone.
Dont hope that BAP and ECM is on all lights aviable, why should i play my raven, when i can play a little assault (jenner) with all the goodys and no drawback.

Jenner = strike fighter (5-6 weapons, speed++)
raven = scout, electronics (5 weapons, speed, electronics)
commando = urban scout (4-5weapons, agility, speed+)

[cyberFluke]

Zakius, on 10 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I agree that heavier mechs have the equipment to scout, but just having the equipment to do something doesnt mean you should. If an awsome trys to scout he will just wind up dead very quickly, He doesnt have the speed or small size, or hit detection problems to avoid being turned into a dead mech.

So id just say your argument isnt just false its nonsensical too.

So me getting caught on my own in my Awesome and bring able to call down directed fire support without having the required gear to do so isn't a problem?

Careful how you answer.

[cyberFluke]

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

That's been the case for the last 20 years, whether it be the US, Australia, Europe, China, etc... There's always someone with a disadvantage and nobody ever cares unless it's them... go figure.

50ms ping = .05 seconds
200ms ping = .2 seconds
500ms ping = .5 seconds
1000ms ping = 1 second.

The aiming difference between those numbers is literally a handful of pixels... that's quite the balance favor! I'm going to start carrying my change in my back pocket to offset the weight of my belt buckle, because that thing puts me so off balance i'm terrible at my job.

When the greater the ping, the greater the variation in ping, and that "few pixels" is a constantly variable amount, It's a serious advantage, smartass.

[DrxAbstract]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

It's just laughable that all these guys driving the lights assume they're awesome. No.. you're not.. If this game had decent netcode (which it doesn't) you'd be literally legged 270m away from my AC20, but as it stands, the netcode is trash and makes it impossible to hit stuff on the move with the current netcode and firing delays.

speed + junk netcode + firing delay on AC weapons / ballistics + no falling = lame.

Couldnt help but notice you put 'falling' in there, making your real issue clear; relying on falls to kill things is a crutch. Also, nice pro sniper comment; too bad only about 1 of the 10,000 people making that kind of claim can actually do it, repeatedly, in suboptimal conditions. Admitting you cant because of 'suboptimal conditions' is another way of saying you're not as good as you think.

Quote

Can't aim out of bad net-code.

I see it all the time.

What i havnt seen is one of those mythical Jenners that can dive into a pack of enemies, kill half of them, leave the rest limping and escape unscathed. Must be the MWO Unicorn, right?

[Scraper]

My biggest gripe is that there seems to be an abundance of pilots with bad internet connections that purposefully pilot lights, then they rubberband all over. I've seen it in other mechs obviously, but the vast majority have been in lights which means that it's becoming a strategy

[Ravager AI]

Talking from my own experience, when rubberbanding occurs it affects the pilot as well. While I have yet to be killed in one of these occurrences I have had almost all of my armor stripped due to frantic lazor fire. Neither have I been able to land a shot on a mech when this has happened because weapons will also be affected.

I conclusion, rubberbanding is almost always bad thing for fast mechs. Only reason I never whine about it is because I have my max armor Cicada that can take those few hits and still get out alive.

And speaking of the laggshield, it seems that most people have adapted already. There are a multitude of times when I have been successfully hit when running at max speed, one such time I even got one-shotted from a gausspult who hit me in the face at 600m or so. (I had already taken a little bit of damage thanks to a misfiring team mate.)

[Karl Marlow]

Aquilus, on 10 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Skirmisher is and should be a viable role for appropriately equipped light mechs. Your claims of behaving like a "mini assault" are absurd, as lights have a fraction of the armour and firepower of assaults. Armour is doubled on *all* mechs, not just lights, so I don't see how that factors into the equation at all.

Skirmishers were traditionally the role of a Medium Mech. Currently the Lights are usurping that role. Leaving Mediums without a role.

The problem with doubling armor is it is redundant on a light mech. A Light mech is fast. THAT is supposed to be its armor. If you are lucky enough to hut it it is supposed to hurt badly. When you double the armor then you have to get alot more lucky shots off. Couple that with some of the firepower on these mechs, such as a Jenners 4 ML's and you are going to take the equivalent of an AC/20 hit every round while the speed, armor, and lagshield of a light makes them almost unkillable at times.

Edited by ThomasMarik, 10 November 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

PanzerMagier, on 10 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Scouts can already fire everything they heave repeatedly (if you built it right). I'd have to say with 2.0 DHS, I could the same, not at the moment. 4 LL would make short work of any would-be scout pilot who thinks he can tango with an assault mech.

I made this thread because I've NEVER had an issue with scouts in the past. They were (and mostly still ARE) easy kills. However I'm seeing scouts getting quite cocky and feeling them selves smugly good because apparently it requires great amounts of skill to use poor netcoding to your advantage.

They're powerful because of a flaw in the game's system. I'm completely okay if it is intended that scouts are supposed to be the ultimate weapon on the battlefield ,but they are NOT. This game is canonically based on BATTLE TECH. As well all understand that battle tech uses light mechs as SCOUTS, NOT as an assault force. It is a viable tactic to use a lance of scouts to put a lance of medium/heavy and maybe even assault mechs into confusion or avert their attention however it is NOT the role of a scout lance to be capable of decimating an entire company of assault mechs. Such feats can only achieved by great skill and a generous amount of luck, NOT through cheap game mechanics. It shouldn't even be practically possible. If your point of view defers from this then clearly you do not understand how this game should be played.

Mechwarrior is based on battle tech, thus I expect of it to be very much like battle tech. Scouts are not supposed be the supreme edge on the battlefield, simple as that.

EDIT:



Now double those numbers to incorporate sending information packets BACK to you. Now add the time to which you respond to react and fire. No dash in some poor framerate issue.

Do you know what you have? That 0.5 second just turned into a full second delay. WOAH?! how did that happen? Only an ***** cannot see how small changes can have great effects.

As an example: The awesome used to have a head that anyone could head shot while blindfold. They reduced the hitbox size by only 15%. that means it is now only 85% the original size. Not much of a difference? These days I hardly ever headshot an awesmoe. It's easier to just core them them straight. Hell it's even easier to headshot a catapult/hunchback than an awesome these days.

Certainly are a lot of assumptions being made about my understanding of things, that's for certain. And 15% is not a small change, being that it's relative to the starting numeric. Since, you know, 15% of 1 billion vs 15% of 1 million and all that. Player reaction time is an unknown and irrelevant variable considering you cross over from the realm of 'it's the game!' to 'it's you!' which kind of invalidates your point altogether. So let's stick to why it's the game's fault, shall we?

Now i dont have a perfect connection, granted i've yet to see it pass 70ms, but that may have more to do with my rootkey tampering than anything else since i see the same numbers playing on servers across the continent and world. So we know the netcode is bad, sure. The unfortunate part of it is as a CB player we've known about it for quite some time, and it's far and away better than the first two weeks of OB. So, having known the quality of the netcode all this time, why is it that you are having such difficulty killing Lights when i, using several tons worth fewer weapons, can manage to kill them with little issue? According to your logic i shouldnt be, since my ping jumping around between 30-70 is sufficient to make them nigh unhittable, right?

No? My ping isnt high enough? But you said small changes have huge effects! Not in my case though, yes? Because my ping is already so low. Must be it. Well, i didnt have a hard time killing them a week ago... Cant really say my ping was the reason for that one, can you? No, you cant. I have a suggestion... a small change, if you will - Learn how to aim.

[BoomDog]

I think there's a fine line between "OMG NERF SCOUTS", and "OMG WHERE'S ALL THE SCOUTS", threads.

True, they need to fix the netcode, but currently, the scout role is a little weak after the LRM nerf. Which, sadly, is the only reason to scout right now. All other weapons require direct line of sight, and close range to be effective. Both of which don't require a scout to do.

Idea: Perhaps direct firing at a target that has been spotted by a scout negates the damage tapering off?

[rythex]

Whatever, keep living in denial. I've been playing counter strike since it's beta, quake, quake2, quake3, any FPS and I can head shot a 5x5 pixel head on a person, yet in this game it's next to impossible to shoot a robots legs or body if they're moving, that's bad net code.

You're not a good pilot, you're benefiting from crap netcode which PGI had admitted sucks on fast moving objects (scouts)

The end.

[rythex]

<warping around> <people shooting at wherever because they honestly have no idea where you *really* are located to the server due to trash netcode and warping/jittering>


"I'M SO AMAZING AT PILOTING YAAAAAA" "ALL 4 OF THESE PEOPLE SUCK AT AIMING AND SHOULD L2P, I AM ONE AMAZING PILOT" <bounce bounce/warp/jitter jitter>

/yawn

[DrxAbstract]

Dont really know how you can say i'm a bad pilot when you have no evidence to support such a statement in either direction. You, however, are claiming to be a pro sniper, yet cant hit the broad side of a mech. My conclusion floats, yours implodes.

Edited by Hayashi, 11 November 2012 - 01:38 AM.
Removed flaming.

[Tebbo]

Zakius, on 10 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

People dont want light s to be easy kills, what they do want however is Lights to fill the battlefield role they are supposed to have. Lights = scouting and recon mechs not Little assault mechs which is where they currently sit. Lights will soon have ECM and BAP allowing them to fill the battlefield role they are supposed to have. A scout uses its speed and manouverability to avoid engaging heavier mechs. A Commando hit in the leg by 2 large lasers should have the leg almost destroyed. But right now because of armour doubling, and lag shield combined with hit detection issues. Right now your lucky if it barely damages it.

I love lights, i love piloting my jenner doing almost 150 KPH but right now i feel nearly immortal. With no collisions of any kind no fear of being knocked over. and double armour im free to behave like a mini assault mech.

You're right. But if armor wasn't doubled anyone would go down incredibly fast.
Works fine in BT since depending on the rules you use, you can't exactly do aimed shots AND you're moving multiple mechs each turn. So having them go down relatively quickly is great. Keeps a long game from going on forever.

I don't think they should do anything other than use BT as a baseline guide for things. From there they should ignore it wherever necessary to get the feeling of BT working in a totally different kind of environment. I think so far they have been doing that.

I play BT and I think they should largely ignore BT rules and specifics. BT is not a real time FPS online game. It's about as far from it as can be.

[rythex]

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Dont really know how you can say i'm a bad pilot when you have no evidence to support such a statement in either direction. You, however, are claiming to be a pro sniper, yet cant hit the broad side of a mech. My conclusion floats, yours implodes.

I give up, you're obviously not technically inclined and have now idea how a server / client architecture setup works.

Edited by Hayashi, 11 November 2012 - 01:37 AM.
Removed discriminatory content.