130 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Lorcan Lladd, on 10 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Not exactly - armor values were not simply doubled across the board, but rather scaled.
To put it into rough numbers: a stock Jenner has 62 points of armor in tabletop, whereas in MechWarrior Online it might be equipped with 300; a stock Atlas has 305 points of armor in tabletop, and 600 in MechWarrior Online.

This is right and wrong at the same time. Yes, In TT a Stock jenner might only have 62 points of armor, but that is not the Max armor a jenner can hold. As per mech creation rules, each weight class has a max armor points they can hold, which translates to a tonnage. Off hand i don't know what the max is for 35 ton, but my guess would be the same as MWO. Max armor has never been tied to a mech itself, only its weight.

Now on the subject of lights being unkillable. They are only unkillable if you don't know how to aim. As a jenner pilot myself, I find killing Light mechs very easy, using just about any mech. Now sure, if I load up a mech with ballistic or SRM's I will have a hard time hitting fast moving mechs, even fast hunchys might give ya trouble. Lasers on the other hand eat fast mechs alive, Streaks also do nicely. Once you learn how fast mechs behave they are easy to predict, track, and lead even with lag as a factor.

Plus, for the OP. Its very wrong to call the devs "sloppy" for their net code. Sure it might not be the best, but at the same time everything is being done server side. That means there will be more lag the faster things go in the game. Since its having to make more trips back and forth. Now the good side to that is, it makes the game stupidly hard to impossible to hack. Though OP, if you think their net code is bad, then that must mean you can do better right? So get to cracking and fix that net code for them, as they are hiring a network programmer right now.

Edited by Kousagi, 10 November 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Malzel]

I'm just going to level with you guys, I'm new. I come from other online games that are fully released but always under development, meaning that the game is always being tweaked and re-tweaked, and players are always complaining about how this is overpowered, that's underpowered, the game is all out of wack, the Devs suck, etc. I'm used to that.

I say that because the complaining, griping, and hating on the Devs on these boards is far beyond what it is on the games I'm from, and this game hasn't even been released yet. Guys, remember the part where this is a beta release, as in, "not finished," as in, "there are going to be some issues"? If you're going to move into a house that's still under construction, don't call up the landlord and cry because it gets drafty at night.

I started playing a day or two after Open Beta, and in the week or two I've been here, there's been one big patch and then a follow-up two days later, that addressed almost everything that had been racking up the forum hate before they came out. That means that your Devs were not only listening to you, but they probably knew about that stuff and were working on it before you even started trashing them about it.

It takes my fully-released, fully-funded games months to work out, test, and release patches like that. You guys have a great team at the wheel here, so chill out. There are bugs and glitches, and a game on the internet is always going to lag, but this game isn't even close to release and it's already awesome. If you get to the point where you're not having fun, take a break, have a drink, score a dame, or whatever else is fun for you and try not to bash the folks who are working hard to give you something fun to do.

If you really just can't take it, you could always wait and come back when the game is, you know, finished.

In the meantime, I'm going to have a blast killing giant robots with other giant robots, glitches, lag, and wonky hitboxes be damned.

[Wispsy]

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

What i havnt seen is one of those mythical Jenners that can dive into a pack of enemies, kill half of them, leave the rest limping and escape unscathed. Must be the MWO Unicorn, right?

I am right here.

On a side note I hit light mechs all the time with my lasers, most of them if they are running sideways I do not get the pretty flashing lights on them as I have to fire just ahead to hit where I want but I and many others reliably hit where we want.... Honestly if you are dying every game to a scout you can apparently hit but you keep aiming where you know (and the posts here show most people complaining about this know that netcode is not yet perfect) they are not..and then complaining you do no damage...well that is a little silly :/ Ofc their are some lights who will predict when you are about to shoot and deliberately change their speed to get rid of their lagshield but then you just need to start predicting what they will do or holding your shots till you have easier angles to hit them, that is a player skill thing that will happen with or without lagshield...if they are honestly just circling you as you and 3 friends fail to hit them well.....that is a bad light against 4 bad assaults and it is down to pure luck who wins (hit them solidly twice maybe 3 times in the same spot and they will be dead, they hit you loads and loads of times as they circle in a predictable pattern rarely getting a solid hit on what they want...)
If you keep seeing them light up just move your aim a little infront, shoot legs or something. Plenty of lights are getting big heads because they cannot be tripped, but those are also mostly the lights putting themselves in bad positions and dying anyway...Hell just back up against a wall and catch them at an angle that is not total sideways going at full tilt if it is that bad....

Also somebody made some random tt armour comparison from stock models....I have never played tt but I have heard that stock variants do not always carry the max available armour for the chassis........and that infact they did double max armour and stock variants still have their reduced armour just doubled....I could be wrong but I think you are basing your theories on all the wrong basic ideas...

Edit: some people are really really laggy. It is impossible to hit them with any weapon in any chassis even slow atlas due to warping and randomness. This is not true of the majority of scouts or players I have seen. 99% of the time I see mostly bad aim, from myself, my team and my opponents.

Edited by Wispsy, 10 November 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I give up, you're obviously not technically inclined and have now idea how a server / client architecture setup works.

So instead of sticking to the gimmicky 'bad pilot' routine you've decided to switch over to data transfer protocols. Funny, i wasnt aware you were trying to explain how signal degradation occurs over distance or how PGI's utter lack of a compensatory latency algorithm exacerbates the issue... could you kindly link the posts wherein your explanations dwell?

Edited by Hayashi, 11 November 2012 - 01:35 AM.
Edited quote to remove discriminatory content.

[rythex]

Malzel, on 10 November 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'm just going to level with you guys, I'm new. I come from other online games that are fully released but always under development, meaning that the game is always being tweaked and re-tweaked, and players are always complaining about how this is overpowered, that's underpowered, the game is all out of wack, the Devs suck, etc. I'm used to that.

I say that because the complaining, griping, and hating on the Devs on these boards is far beyond what it is on the games I'm from, and this game hasn't even been released yet. Guys, remember the part where this is a beta release, as in, "not finished," as in, "there are going to be some issues"? If you're going to move into a house that's still under construction, don't call up the landlord and cry because it gets drafty at night.

I started playing a day or two after Open Beta, and in the week or two I've been here, there's been one big patch and then a follow-up two days later, that addressed almost everything that had been racking up the forum hate before they came out. That means that your Devs were not only listening to you, but they probably knew about that stuff and were working on it before you even started trashing them about it.

It takes my fully-released, fully-funded games months to work out, test, and release patches like that. You guys have a great team at the wheel here, so chill out. There are bugs and glitches, and a game on the internet is always going to lag, but this game isn't even close to release and it's already awesome. If you get to the point where you're not having fun, take a break, have a drink, score a dame, or whatever else is fun for you and try not to bash the folks who are working hard to give you something fun to do.

If you really just can't take it, you could always wait and come back when the game is, you know, finished.

In the meantime, I'm going to have a blast killing giant robots with other giant robots, glitches, lag, and wonky hitboxes be damned.

And we're having a discussion on it since it is beta, did you want us to stick out head in the sand and pretend it's working as intended? Maybe you need to stay off the forum then?

[Lorcan Lladd]

Kousagi, on 10 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

This is right and wrong at the same time. Yes, In TT a Stock jenner might only have 62 points of armor, but that is not the Max armor a jenner can hold. As per mech creation rules, each weight class has a max armor points they can hold, which translates to a tonnage. Off hand i don't know what the max is for 35 ton, but my guess would be the same as MWO. Max armor has never been tied to a mech itself, only its weight.

Huh, that's true.
I stand corrected with regards to that.

Kousagi, on 10 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Now on the subject of lights being unkillable. They are only unkillable if you don't know how to aim. As a jenner pilot myself, I find killing Light mechs very easy, using just about any mech. Now sure, if I load up a mech with ballistic or SRM's I will have a hard time hitting fast moving mechs, even fast hunchys might give ya trouble. Lasers on the other hand eat fast mechs alive, Streaks also do nicely. Once you learn how fast mechs behave they are easy to predict, track, and lead even with lag as a factor.

No need to tell me this - I'm the scout hunter with 220-500ms ping, remember?
I guess most people forget that they still have to lead any shots fired against fast moving target, even if they're using lasers - a misunderstanding...

On the other hand, that's still something which may be compensated for.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 10 November 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[rythex]

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

So instead of sticking to the gimmicky 'bad pilot' routine you've decided to switch over to data transfer protocols. Funny, i wasnt aware you were trying to explain how signal degradation occurs over distance or how PGI's utter lack of a compensatory latency algorithm exacerbates the issue... could you kindly link the posts wherein your explanations dwell?

You're obviously missing the point of the fact that lights warp / jitter on screen, that's ok. I understand.

As per Kotaku interview, they are aware the code is terrible

BryanEkman @CoffiNail 2 days ago

Early next year. We need to make improvements to the network code to support higher mech movement speeds."




I guess you have until next year to be an amazingly bad light pilot.

[Shalune]

ThomasMarik, on 10 November 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Skirmishers were traditionally the role of a Medium Mech. Currently the Lights are usurping that role. Leaving Mediums without a role.

I couldn't disagree more. I carry more medium lasers than a jenner, 2 SRM6s and still have a maxed engine and almost maxed armor. I think the biggest problem I see with many people piloting mediums is lack of speed. Lights can usually get by fine with default engines (excluding non 3L raven) but if you're walking around at the default speed for most hunch and cent models you're not going any faster than a catapult and barely edge out stock awesomes.

At that point, how much are you really bringing to the table?

Make getting a better engine a high priority. Using the various lightweight techs you can still fit a monstrous amount of firepower thanks to having more and/or better placed hardpoints than lights. Really take advantage of weapons with good weight to damage ratios like lasers and SRMs. With all this you'll have the firepower and speed to scare off lights and the ability to outmaneuver heavier mechs

Lights can bring some good firepower of their own. They can even wear down a lot of average pilots 1 v 1, but they can't keep up with a good skirmisher when it comes to engaging a group.

[Malzel]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

And we're having a discussion on it since it is beta, did you want us to stick out head in the sand and pretend it's working as intended? Maybe you need to stay off the forum then?

Right, because your scholarly dialogues have been an enlightening experience for all who happen across them.

Relax, bro.

[Rokuzachi]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Trust me, even with a 42ms ping it's still hard as hell to hit lights as they just warp around.

Yea, 40-70ms here, and each match it's a crapshoot as to just how much I have to compensate for the bad hit detection. I usually start by actually visually hitting the mech, then shooting the air in front of it some, etc etc until I hit. Honestly... it's pretty dumb.

Reminds me of a certain other game that had big problems with fast moving objects actually displaying where they were. Lag shields are not game mechanics.

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

You're obviously missing the point of the fact that lights warp / jitter on screen, that's ok. I understand.

As per Kotaku interview, they are aware the code is terrible

BryanEkman @CoffiNail 2 days ago

Early next year. We need to make improvements to the network code to support higher mech movement speeds."

I guess you have until next year to be an amazingly bad light pilot.

Wow... next year? That's very disappointing. Seems like it should be a top priority to me, since its not only a PvP game.. but it's all about shooting specific locations on your target, which can be very difficult given the current situation. Maybe it's time for a break until they can manage to fix it =/

Edited by Rokuzachi, 10 November 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[rythex]

Malzel, on 10 November 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Right, because your scholarly dialogues have been an enlightening experience for all who happen across them.

Relax, bro.

I am relaxed, are you going into all the beta threads and informing everyone it's a beta? that's very helpful Bro.

[Wispsy]

Here is a tip if you are having problems with aiming.
Until you get the feel for it, equip a tag. The moment you see that little icon pop up press shoot, you will hit said mech(maybe not if it is max range and you are using a slow ballistic but you should be used to leading them if anyway with zero lagshield if they are your weapon of choice). Waving your tag around the screen you can get a feel for how much leading is required as now it disappears pretty quickly too(the tag icon). Once you have played a few games and determined how far ahead the light mechs regularly are you can then replace the tag with 1 more laser and do your full dps knowing where they will be! Ofc this only works if they are below 450m, if you are a sniper you just need to l2aim compensating for lag as well as speed is not that difficult come on...the majority of people have under 150ms and the rest have like 330 so it is either one or the other 99% of the time...

Edited by Wispsy, 10 November 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

You're obviously missing the point of the fact that lights warp / jitter on screen, that's ok. I understand.

That wasnt the point you were trying to make. "The netcode is bad." <--- Unspecific statement. Now it's "They warp and jitter." First i'm a bad pilot, then it was no understanding of computers, now it's back to bad pilot. Nice how your comments always change to perfectly suit your otherwise terrible position. Dont worry, i'm well aware you not only have no idea what you're doing in game, but on the forums as well. But i'm still not sure why you're justifying the discussion of an issue that's been talked about for some time now and discussed amongst those capable of doing something about it... unlike you.

Par for the course, i suppose.

[Shalune]

Wispsy, on 10 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Here is a tip if you are having problems with aiming.
Until you get the feel for it, equip a tag.

Ha, that's an awesome idea. Hadn't thought of using it specifically for that.

[DrxAbstract]

Wispsy... You are no unicorn, and that is not a horn! Wait... is that candy?

[Tuhalu]

Anything with 64kph speed or less is going to have a hard time face to face with any mech with 110kph speed or more. Because fast mechs move around them too quickly for their torso twist speed.

There is plenty of room in the game for mediums and heavies going at least 75kph and mounting SSRMs and Pulse Lasers to chew up those scouts (and most other things too!). Otherwise, look out for your own scouts putting TAG on their scouts as a priority for LRM fire.

Regular Lasers have to stay on target too long to be effective against fast mechs.

PPCs and Ballistics suffer from travel time, inertia and a lack of guidance.

The best time to take down a scout mech is when he thinks he's got a back shot with nobody looking at him... and you fly over the hill at 80+ kph in your fast medium or heavy and catch him stopping to take a good shot.

Edited by Tuhalu, 10 November 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

If a light has the time to line up full damage using their lasers there is no way two heavier mechs shouldn't be able to work together to take it down. Here is a thought.. cover each other. Separate enough that the light cant circle both of you without opening up to the other. Force the light to give an easy angle to the other pilot, 'lagsheild' only works if the target is moving across your feild of view. I'm not saying it should be easy... but its not easy to kill assaults or heavies either, unless the pilot loses his mind and goes rambo.

I try to stay out of these threads, and I do want to see a modified collision replaced, but it seems to me that too many players want killing a light to be so easy that there is no point in playing one.

[rythex]

Obviously you're just missing the correlation between bad netcode for mechs doing 90km+ which results in warping/jittering for other people trying to shoot the light mech.

The warping/jittering makes it next to impossible to lead a target because of it which then gives the light mech some impression that he's an amazing driver.. when in fact it's just bad code making other shots unable to connect, that coupled with the terrible implementation of server side authentication or verification of some of the ballistic weapons adds even MORE latency waiting on the server to give the "OK" that you're not hacking.


I know it's a pretty huge concept for you to wrap your head around, but you'll get it maybe one day... probably not.

The knock downs isn't even the issue, its the fact the NET CODE is complete trash at relaying the positioning or predicting the location of the high speed mechs on other clients and the lights essentially just warp/jitter around. Go and play a 50-80 km/h mech and watch the lights on screen, its ridiculous.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread, I'll just bookmark it and bump it when the netcode is fixed (2013) and read the whines/cries when a bunch of light players get trashed and have to relearn how to play. "oh I keep dying when I engage 5 heavy assault mechs"

Edited by rythex, 10 November 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[BoomDog]

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I couldn't disagree more. I carry more medium lasers than a jenner, 2 SRM6s and still have a maxed engine and almost maxed armor. I think the biggest problem I see with many people piloting mediums is lack of speed. Lights can usually get by fine with default engines (excluding non 3L raven) but if you're walking around at the default speed for most hunch and cent models you're not going any faster than a catapult and barely edge out stock awesomes.

At that point, how much are you really bringing to the table?

Make getting a better engine a high priority. Using the various lightweight techs you can still fit a monstrous amount of firepower thanks to having more and/or better placed hardpoints than lights. Really take advantage of weapons with good weight to damage ratios like lasers and SRMs. With all this you'll have the firepower and speed to scare off lights and the ability to outmaneuver heavier mechs

Lights can bring some good firepower of their own. They can even wear down a lot of average pilots 1 v 1, but they can't keep up with a good skirmisher when it comes to engaging a group.

I've been thinking the same thing. Too many mediums think they're a mini-atlas. Those slow mediums are pretty easy to kill, even in my non-3L Raven with it's stock engine They just turn too slow to be effective.

I'm working my way up to buying a centurion, and my goal is to have it moving at least 80kph.

[Wispsy]

DrxAbstract, on 10 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Wispsy... You are no unicorn, and that is not a horn! Wait... is that candy?

Definitely candy, but not the type you bite! Nibbling at most.