791 replies to this topic

[Hekalite]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Seeing as the recent tournaments that took place eliminated the LRM teams because they were so easily countered. Yeah, I'd say that they were useless as a damage buff won't change that fact. As for teams that used LRMs for support, they should be just as effective now as then.

Wait, are you talking about an entire team of 8 LRMs? I think I may have misunderstood you, or you misunderstood me, or both. I was talking about LRMs used for support within a full team. LRM boats running without backup are sitting ducks. And with a 4 man group, you just can't guarantee that your support lance will have proper protection.

Meh. I think we are saying the same thing, but I'm still confused.

[Noth]

Hekalite, on 10 November 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Wait, are you talking about an entire team of 8 LRMs? I think I may have misunderstood you, or you misunderstood me, or both. I was talking about LRMs used for support within a full team. LRM boats running without backup are sitting ducks. And with a 4 man group, you just can't guarantee that your support lance will have proper protection.

Meh. I think we are saying the same thing, but I'm still confused.

They weren't complete LRM teams, they were LRM heavy teams (something that was devastating in pug games).

Edited by Noth, 10 November 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Ghostrider0067]

Araxes, on 10 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Agreed LRMs as they stand now are pretty worthless. Most mechs just ignore the fire now - people are a lot smarter about dodging after the two days of Artemis craziness, which is great, but when they're being hit by them, they can laugh it off with almost no effect even after sustained salvos. Initial Artmemis implementation was OP, granted, but the way they are now just feels horrible to use, completely ineffective.

They need a buff, real bad.

So, based on what you've stated and per my understanding, the Artemis AMS is actually OP to a degree and should thereby be given a reduction in effectiveness? Given the vids I've seen, I may be in agreement. I know how effective an AMS system is having seen them in action while I was in the Navy, but you might be onto something.

Thoughts?

[Kaziganthi]

UraniumOverdose, on 10 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Any weapon that allows to sit behind cover 1000M away and still deal damage, should not do a ton of damage. As others have said it's a support weapon for softening up your targets that if played properly presents little risk to yourself. If you want a weapon system that does all the work for you, then live with the fact that you don't get the high damage numbers or the multiple kills per game that brawlers deserve to get.

You'd better tell the Armed forces of the world to destroy all their long ranged weaponry because it shouldn't do a tonne of damage.

[Squigles]

I'm confused, before Artemis was even introduced, LRM's were fairly devastating. If things were walking out in the open, you could easily rack up 3+ kills a match.

Ignoring Artemis, the spread and angle of attack is mostly the same as it was before the patch, the ONLY difference is a 15% reduction in damage. If you're saying a 15% reduction in damage is reducing your damage output by 50%+, I'm calling BS on general principal.

As it stands now, LRM's are back into that nice 1.7-1.8 niche they were in back in closed beta (yes, they were also at 1.0 and 1.5 during this time, but those values were rubbish) before being bumped to 2.0, only they now have TAG/Narc/Artemis to further buff their performance, they are currently balanced instead of being completely silly.

[Clan Warrior]

In BT in 3049, missile boats like catapult often had things like misfire, an explosion inside when launching, often 50% of missiles fired did not explode or missed the target completely when they should have impacted it.etc.

LRMs seem to make more damage in BT than what we have now in game but... With all the other problems, LRMs were just not as effective most of the time. So MWO actually does a good job to simulate LRMs. If they can add misfire, internal explosions when misfired, more advanced and realistic trajectory that will allow for more random misses while been more damaging then it would have been even less effective than what we now have in game.

[Kaziganthi]

Clan Warrior, on 10 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

In BT in 3049, missile boats like catapult often had things like misfire, an explosion inside when launching, often 50% of missiles fired did not explode or missed the target completely when they should have impacted it.etc.

.

Umm what BT 3049 are you talking about. The TT rules never had any such things and I only read about a few occurances in the novels and that was probably poetic licence.

[Squigles]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

You'd better tell the Armed forces of the world to destroy all their long ranged weaponry because it shouldn't do a tonne of damage.

We are not in the real world, we are in the battle tech universe.

Begin quote.

"Artillery can provide a force with useful long-range fire support. Unlike the real world, where artillery is often the decisive force in combat, BattleTech artillery is only a supplement to conventional forces."

End quote.

CBT:MR Revised, page 73.

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Umm what BT 3049 are you talking about. The TT rules never had any such things and I only read about a few occurances in the novels and that was probably poetic licence.

There were some advanced rules that sort of operated like that, although it's been ages since I read them and I think they had to do with hot loading.

Edited by Squigles, 10 November 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Shalune]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

They weren't complete LRM teams, they were LRM heavy teams (something that was devastating in pug games).

While I agree LRMs were never as strong in teams as pugs, I think this game is way too young to say anything definitive about the competitive meta game. Someone winning a tournament right now could just as easily be a sign that their team had the best pilots as it is that their loadouts were any better.

[Kaziganthi]

Squigles, on 10 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Ignoring Artemis, the spread and angle of attack is mostly the same as it was before the patch, the ONLY difference is a 15% reduction in damage. If you're saying a 15% reduction in damage is reducing your damage output by 50%+, I'm calling BS on general principal.

Get a Cat, put in twin lrm 15's and 10's with 8 tonnes of ammo. Pick a target (preferably an Atlas) and fire them till empty. Then when your dead and he's standing over your burning mech have a look at your score at the end.

[Clan Warrior]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Umm what BT 3049 are you talking about. The TT rules never had any such things and I only read about a few occurances in the novels and that was probably poetic licence.

Talking about canon my friend not TT read some more novels and find out

[Kaziganthi]

Squigles, on 10 November 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

We are not in the real world, we are in the battle tech universe.

Begin quote.

"Artillery can provide a force with useful long-range fire support. Unlike the real world, where artillery is often the decisive force in combat, BattleTech artillery is only a supplement to conventional forces."

End quote.

CBT:MR Revised, page 73.

I can't sit behind a hill 1 click away and hit a target I don't see if I don't have spotters. Just curious what do you pilot, a HBK with 11 lasers?

[kragmoor]

lrms are a support weapon. you should not be able to dominate the match with them, they have not been "nerfed too hard"

[Kaziganthi]

Clan Warrior, on 10 November 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Talking about canon my friend not TT read some more novels and find out

And as I said, thats novels. In the novels we also have engine explosions, and there are Tier 3 rules for those as well. We don't have them here. Mechs can crouch behind cover, not here also. Redsigning mechs from using MG's to GR are major redesigns and should cost more than just plopping the weapon in (BT Mech Construction Rules), nope again not here.

I can list a whole range of things that happen in cannon and TT that doesn't here.

[Insighter]

PGI buffs LRMs damage to 2 per missile during closed beta.
People complain it's overpowered.

PGI nerfs LRMs damage to 1.7 per missile during open beta.
People complain it's underpowered.

What will happen next ?
*takes popcorn*

Edited by Insighter, 10 November 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Squigles]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

I can't sit behind a hill 1 click away and hit a target I don't see if I don't have spotters. Just curious what do you pilot, a HBK with 11 lasers?

Stock C1 weapon load out with modified engine, heatsinks, and ammo....do just fine. Or a stock HBK-4G weapon load with, again, modified engine, heatsinks, and ammo. And a HBK can't hold 11 lasers, tops out at 9. =)

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Get a Cat, put in twin lrm 15's and 10's with 8 tonnes of ammo. Pick a target (preferably an Atlas) and fire them till empty. Then when your dead and he's standing over your burning mech have a look at your score at the end.

Even if only 25% of your missiles hit that atlas, there'd not be a shred of armor left on it's front side, and that's if you peeled the head and legs while you were at it. If you're failing to split an atlas open with 50 LRM racks and 8 tons of ammo....you're doing it wrong.

Edited by Squigles, 10 November 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Kaziganthi]

Insighter, on 10 November 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

PGI buffs LRMs damage to 2 per missile during closed beta.
People complain it's overpowered.

PGI nerfs LRMs damage to 1.7 per missile during open beta.
People complain it's underpowered.

What will happen next ?
*takes popcorn*

People all mount Balistic weapons, then they get nerfed.

[Skylen]

Dr Killinger, on 10 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Thing is, there are few boat configurations that can kill an Atlas with impunity, much less so from 1km away. Before the hotfix, an Atlas in the open was dead. Afterwards, it isn't, but this isn't some strange pheonmena that defies logic. An Atlas is tough.

LRMs are still dangerous, but they are now as they should be, a support weapon. They suppress enemies, keep them in cover, and can turn the tide of a battle. LRM support turns a sure defeat into a sure victory. This is very valuable, but difficult to coordinate without great teamwork and focussing targets. This is great, because no LRM boat should be able to solo the toughest mech in the Inner Sphere.

I agree with this as well.
LRM's are were they should be now. You don't see the game flooded with lrm boats anymore but you do still see them. Which is good cause that mean the game is more balanced.

[Firefun]

So lets see what changed after the hotfix:
- 15% less LRM damage
- 5% less tightening with Artemis
- the 90 degree trajectory bug got fixed

Thing is that people get the missile warning and run for cover now instead of getting ROFLstomped by 1000m away LRMboater by themself.

All the "..or else I'll quit" post are getting old real fast. Just leave the game with all your negativity, if you cannt stand the small changes for balancing reasons in the open beta.

sry.. no "I win" weapon for you.

Edited by Firefun, 10 November 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Clan Warrior]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

And as I said, thats novels. In the novels we also have engine explosions, and there are Tier 3 rules for those as well. We don't have them here. Mechs can crouch behind cover, not here also. Redsigning mechs from using MG's to GR are major redesigns and should cost more than just plopping the weapon in (BT Mech Construction Rules), nope again not here.

I can list a whole range of things that happen in cannon and TT that doesn't here.

Most mechs in canon were also old beat-up machines their targeting systems, missiles quality, etc. was usually of low quality. Only elite house units and few successful mercenary units possessed high quality or even brand new mechs. Most mech pilots piloted damaged mechs into combat.

Again you find this in canon. TT is a game with rules BT canon is well BT canon . They do both complement each other though.

My point is this perhaps you don't understand me? This is a game a simulation so not everything can be accurate or even possible and recreated in game.

But LRMs are not suppose to be the death from above answer to a problem. It should hurt and even destroy under certain conditions. I think they can always improve LRMs but, they can only do so much before matches again turn into missile boat fest.