791 replies to this topic

[Kaijin]

Clan Warrior, on 10 November 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Talking about canon my friend not TT read some more novels and find out

TT IS canon. Novels are lore.

[Noth]

Kaijin, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

TT IS canon. Novels are lore.

TT is an abstraction of lore. There are things that happen in lore that either can't in TT or flat out go against TT.

[Kaijin]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

TT is an abstraction of lore. There are things that happen in lore that either can't in TT or flat out go against TT.

What came first? TT. Lore is derived from TT - not the other way round.

[Clan Warrior]

Kaijin, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

TT IS canon. Novels are lore.

ORLY? lol Novels are canon man http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Canon

[Kaijin]

Firefun, on 10 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

sry.. no "I win" weapon for you.

Don't think anyone's asking for an "I win" weapon. Catapult drivers just want a reason to carry around a weapon system that weighs 14 tons + 6 tons for ammo.

[WeekendWarrior]

Just to get this out of the way.
Actual BattleTech:
A Catapult would need a damn good Mechwarrior at the controls to have a chance against an Atlas.
Just speaking standard variants, the Cat is a 65 ton fire support Heavy with 160 points of armor.
The two LRM15s each have 8 shots, for a theoretical max damage of 240 points, actual damage will be lower, as LRMs scatter quite a bit, average hitrate for a LRM15 is about 9 missiles. Generally you can't even force a PSR with the Cat.
Now the Atlas, he has 304 points of armor, and an LRM20 of his own. With 12 shots btw.
Pretty much the only advantage the Cat has is his mobility, especially the jump jets. The four lasers combined with that mobility give him a fighting chance, if the Warrior is really damn good.
Cause the Atlas has those four lasers too, one in each arm (greater arc) and two in the back. And an AC20 and SRM6 on top of that. With enough heatsinks to really use that arsenal, so the Cat better not end up in his front arc.
Either way, barring lucky crits or head hits, the best way to deal with an Atlas in a Catapult is to drop some salvos on him, and then run like a chicken and scream for friends.

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You have obviously never been in the military. As currently one of the most powerful weapons in the military is the M109A6 Paladin, which allows Soldiers to rain metal death from 36,000meters away. If weapons in 3049 can't match that, then why other using them at all.

Read up on your BT lore.
That Paladin would only ruin the paint job of a Mech, if you we able to hit a target moving over basically any ground with something between 50 to 100 km/h.
Ofcourse, now you've made him angry. Good luck running away.
Cause the screening elements of a Mech formation are even faster, with Lights and Hovers going up to 200 km/h.
And if he's really angry, or just doesn't like you, he might even call in an ASF strike.

Oh, and there is "real" artillery in Battletech, Arrow IV, Thumper, Sniper and Long Tom.
LRMs don't belong into that category though.

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

LRMs should be 1 point of damage per every missile that hits. If you are dumb enough not to seek cover, then you deserve to die.

Agreed, the current 1.7 is way too much...

RG Notch, on 10 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

This same crap will happen if they ever decide to balance Gauss rifles, all the people who simply want to use the OP weapon they read about on the forums will be upset when it's no longer as uber as they were told.

What are you talking about?
The Gauss Rifle is fine, after all it is probably the best weapon the Inner Sphere has.
If anything, its far weaker in MWO already thanks to the doubled armor, on the TT it can headcap any Mech with one shot.
And if you think its overpowered, wait till you see a Clantech ER-PPC or ER-ML in action. Or the Heavy Gauss, in about nine years

Araxes, on 10 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Agreed LRMs as they stand now are pretty worthless. Most mechs just ignore the fire now -

People don't ignore the LRMs, they just don't realize they're getting pelted cause the cockpit shake is gone, and when you're busy with that Jenner running circles around you at Warp 3, the new warning message is easily missed.

[impaledface]

I would be ok with the lrm damage going up to 1.9 or or 1.8 compared to now, but at 2.0 three to four lrm boats could just decimate on caustic and right now lrm boats still require me to go in to cover as a hunchback, or an atlas. The lrms still hit hard, its just more people are running ams and learned how to get to cover effectively because of the 48 hours of op lrms. I am ok with how the lrms are now, but as long as they don't increase the dmg to more than 2.0 or more they will be balanced.

[Dren Nas]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

LRMs will be useless in competitive 8 mans. They have always been useless in competitive 8 mans because they are so easy to counter as an organized team. They need reworked to be useful in competitive 8 mans while not being OP in pugs.

They're useless because they are underpowered currently. Also, you can not balance something to be competitive and not be competitive at the same time like you seem to want.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

They're useless because they are underpowered currently. Also, you can not balance something to be competitive and not be competitive at the same time like you seem to want.

Being countered by teamwork and being underpowered are not the same thing.

[Wispsy]

crabcakes66, on 10 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The funny part about your typo. Is that if this were realistic 300km would be a good number for missile combat ranges.

You are not a troll. All your posts have been accurate and concise and added to the discussion in a positive way! Do not feel bad that some cannot understand them


Other people.....admit you were bad and only barely performing with too powerful weapons that dominated gameplay. Go and learn how to lrm or buy an "easymode" gausscat.

You shoot missiles. I shoot LASERS why the hell can I not destroy you if they are 3049 lasers in under a second especially if you make the stupid dumb noobish mistaken of GETTING IN MY SIGHTS!
ye...strong as your arguments... :/

[Kaijin]

Trolls rarely consider their fellow trolls to be trolls.

[random51]

LRMs are definitely on the weak side at this point.

Did I make that judgement by using LRMs myself? NO.

I used two things to reach that conclusion.

1. I don't worry about LRM fire now. Even if they do manage to hit me the damage is trivial and non-targeted.
2. I'm starting to see very little LRM fire in matches, some matches don't have any.

I definitely prefer them weak compared to the thumb of god they briefly were but they've clearly dropped into lower tier along with PPCs and machine guns.

If they're going to stay this weak then I think artemis and artemis ammo should see a price reduction to match it. The cost is probably why I see so few people using LRMs post double-nerf.

They're simply not "worth it" at this point in time.

Edited by random51, 10 November 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Kaziganthi]

Clan Warrior, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Most mechs in canon were also old beat-up machines their targeting systems, missiles quality, etc. was usually of low quality. Only elite house units and few successful mercenary units possessed high quality or even brand new mechs. Most mech pilots piloted damaged mechs into combat.

Again you find this in canon. TT is a game with rules BT canon is well BT canon . They do both complement each other though.

My point is this perhaps you don't understand me? This is a game a simulation so not everything can be accurate or even possible and recreated in game.

But LRMs are not suppose to be the death from above answer to a problem. It should hurt and even destroy under certain conditions. I think they can always improve LRMs but, they can only do so much before matches again turn into missile boat fest.

I think you misunderstood me as well. I'm not saying the should be the kings of the battlefield, but as they are now, they dont even soften up the lightest of mechs.

[Rhaegor]

I do not use LRMs on my Catapults either. LRM spam is lame.

[Valore]

LRMs are overnerfed atm.

Before the last patch pre-hotfix, they were considered okay.

Post patch, pre hotfix, they became crazy OP.

Post hotfix, they got overnerfed and are now slightly UP, and also flawed in certain ways.

Previously problem post patch, pre hotfix, was:

1. Missiles never missed.

2. Missiles did more damage.

3. Missiles were focused and did concentrated damage on certain mech sections.

But instead of addressing issues one by one, PGI went overboard. Yay.

Now:

1. Missiles do less damage.

2. Missiles have their old flight patterns back, the ones that caused people in Closed Beta to complain and they fixed. The ones that made missiles kinda crap because they kept smashing walls.

3. Missiles no longer track as well, so they do overall less damage because the salvoes miss.

4. They spread all over the place now, meaning again, they do less relevant damage. So a good gauss pilot getting 200 damage is probably being more effective than a missile player doing 600 because of where the damage is concentrated.

5. Everyone forgets this, they no longer rock mechs. Meaning good gauss players will happily shoot your face off through the barrage.

6. Artemis is rubbish for what it does right now. They provide practically zero value over non-Artemis LRMs. Even if they did provide some slight benefit, that benefit is definitely no where near justifying their current reload costs.


I expect the overnerf was due to the mods wanting to balance them together once ECM comes out. We'll have to see before anything can be concluded really.

[Kaijin]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood me as well. I'm not saying the should be the kings of the battlefield, but as they are now, they dont even soften up the lightest of mechs.

Truth. I drive a Commando 1D and post-hotfix, I run around with impunity.

[Dren Nas]

Ghostrider0067, on 10 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

So, based on what you've stated and per my understanding, the Artemis AMS is actually OP to a degree and should thereby be given a reduction in effectiveness? Given the vids I've seen, I may be in agreement. I know how effective an AMS system is having seen them in action while I was in the Navy, but you might be onto something.

Thoughts?

I'm going to have a lot of replies to this topic over the next few minutes as I catch up, so please bear with me.

Nurfing the AMS might be the fix LRMs need. I'm not sure though, but i've been wondering the same thing. The only thing is that LRMs still aren't doing as much damage to mechs that appear to not have AMS on them. Not 100% sure though. I'll have to keep a closer eye on it next time i'm in my LRM mech.

[NaerahQc]

I see so much QQ about peoples that where not good enough to get cover or use any tactics to break locks, of course they don't want LRMs to be balanced. It makes me laugh.

[Kaziganthi]

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Just to get this out of the way.
Actual BattleTech:
A Catapult would need a damn good Mechwarrior at the controls to have a chance against an Atlas.
Just speaking standard variants, the Cat is a 65 ton fire support Heavy with 160 points of armor.
The two LRM15s each have 8 shots, for a theoretical max damage of 240 points, actual damage will be lower, as LRMs scatter quite a bit, average hitrate for a LRM15 is about 9 missiles. Generally you can't even force a PSR with the Cat.
Now the Atlas, he has 304 points of armor, and an LRM20 of his own. With 12 shots btw.
Pretty much the only advantage the Cat has is his mobility, especially the jump jets. The four lasers combined with that mobility give him a fighting chance, if the Warrior is really damn good.
Cause the Atlas has those four lasers too, one in each arm (greater arc) and two in the back. And an AC20 and SRM6 on top of that. With enough heatsinks to really use that arsenal, so the Cat better not end up in his front arc.
Either way, barring lucky crits or head hits, the best way to deal with an Atlas in a Catapult is to drop some salvos on him, and then run like a chicken and scream for friends.

Ok I would accept that, but in the situation above, the missile damge is allocated in groups of 5, not splash as they are in MWO. So even though the Atlas above has an LRM its at a slight disadvantage in long range against the twin lrm 15s of a Cat at longe range even with its weight, as its completment weaponry is all close range. By that time its softened up enough for the cats 4 medium lasers to start to chew into internals.. Also dont forget the cat can move slightly faster and has jump capability so its a lot more manoeuvrable than the atlas.

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Oh, and there is "real" artillery in Battletech, Arrow IV, Thumper, Sniper and Long Tom.
LRMs don't belong into that category though.

Lrms are able to deliver a minefield in Tier 3 rules, they can also be fired using Indirect fire. Thats artillery.

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Agreed, the current 1.7 is way too much...

Drop the armour back to it's original state of half what you have now, and I'll take 1dmg per missile.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Squigles, on 10 November 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Stock C1 weapon load out with modified engine, heatsinks, and ammo....do just fine. Or a stock HBK-4G weapon load with, again, modified engine, heatsinks, and ammo. And a HBK can't hold 11 lasers, tops out at 9. =)



Even if only 25% of your missiles hit that atlas, there'd not be a shred of armor left on it's front side, and that's if you peeled the head and legs while you were at it. If you're failing to split an atlas open with 50 LRM racks and 8 tons of ammo....you're doing it wrong.

Don't forget about AMS. They kinda pop a bunch of missiles.before they hit. If the atlas happens to have 2x AMS the atlas just shrugs the damage and walks across the field in plain view watching fireworks.