11 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

Currently, the Devs have stated that DHSs increase heat dissipation by 40% and add 0.2 (or something) to the base heat capacity of a 'Mech.

Adding heat capacity to a 'Mech makes it more forgiving. This should NOT be part of DHS implementation. If heat capacity remained static, DHS could have a much higher % increase in efficiency.

Why? Because while you would dissipate heat more quickly, if you alphastrike or fire too often, you'll STILL be shutting down more often. It would require an increase in skill to use DHS effectively rather than at present where DHS are just better AND easier to use.

Remove the increase in heat capacity and make the % dissipation more like an actual DOUBLE heat sink.

Just an opinion,
Insanity

[Damocles 1]

they screwed up the double heat sinks pretty hard, i cant imagine why they thought anyone would call they're version acceptable
then again the implementation for EVERYTHING under the upgrades tab is garbage

actually let me rephrase that, the upgrades tab itself is garbage, grossly overpriced and fundamentally unnecisary, i just hope its shallow minded structure is'nt an indicator of things to come

Edited by Damocles 1, 10 November 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Dagger906]

Heat as a whole is badly handled in MWO. The amount of hs that can support 3 ppcs in previous MW games, even without double hs, can only support 1 in MWO. They need to follow existing balance, while doing away with "shutdown override" button.

[HRR Insanity]

While I agree that MWO could be closer to canon, that's not the point of this post.

I'm just asking that the Devs consider removing the 'heat capacity' part of the DHS implementation to give DHS a bit of a high-risk/high-reward feel.

Insanity

[ltwally]

This idea has merit. It would keep rapid-firing / alpha-striking down, while enabling DHS to actually perform like DHS.

+1

[Void2258]

This should be done. Heat sinks are about dissipation, not capacity. You are able to fire more often if you have more because your heat comes down faster, not because you effectively generate less heat to begin with.

[superbob]

this would also make more sense from the tonnage point of view. You put more tons of SHS - you get more metal to dump heat into, regardless of its capacity of dissipating said heat. You put on less tons of DHS - you get less mass to spread the heat, but potentially dissipate it at a higher rate.

[RainbowToh]

DHS are useful when you have the crit slots and not the tonnage for heatsinks whereas single HS are more useful if you lack the slots to use many DHS which uses 3 slots each.

Though DHS arent doing the promised 'double' dissipation, they are doing at 1.4 which is still better than a regular HS for the same weight. I use DHS in my lights n meds where I dont have the weight but have the slots, n SHS in my bigger mechs where it is the opposite, not much slots but lots of tonnage.

[Squidhead Jax]

I'm in favor of previously offered suggestions of DHS functioning as truly doubled dissipation but lowering the overheat cieling. So it's easier to make a 'mech that can cycle its weapons quickly, but provides much less room for error and repeated alphas.

[Sable Hawk]

Let me add my voice in support of the original post here. Heat Sinks and Double Heat Sinks are for reducing heat, not storing it or increasing the amount of heat one can generate before shutdown.

Heat sinks are for drawing away heat, not storing it. Dissipation is the key. Does that mean some mechs will lose heat fast? Yes, but it rewards the mechwarrior who monitors and manages his/her heat instead of blindly alpha striking every chance they get.

If the devs want to add a HS+ that is the same as a regular HS but adds heat capacity, fine. Go for it, but don't mislabel it as a DHS.

Ideally, a DHS should ellimate twice the heat of a single HS. Given the game mechanics the PGI is using I can understand not giving it a 2 for 1 rating. But it does need to be increased (Serious, in the game of "rounding" a "DHS" is just a single HS as in 1.4 rating rounds to 1 not 2). Would it be so hard to bump up that rating to 1.5 or 1.6 and see how things go? Because presently (like so much of the "Upgrades") the cost in C-bills isn't worth the premium paid.

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, the current implementation of Double Heat Sinks is even weirder than that:

1) The DHS in your engine (and don't ask me if that means all, or those that come by default by the engine) are working as true Double Heat Sinks, that means +2 per sink to heat capacity, and +0.2 dissipation.
2) The DHS outside your engine grant +1.4 to heat capacity, and +0.14 dissipation.

What I would suggest to do:

1) Double Heat Sinks (regardless of source), add +1 to the heat capacity per sink - same as standard heat sinks.
2) Double Heat Sinks (regardless of source), add +0.2 to heat dissipation per second - twice as standard heat sinks.


Most mechs cannot carry as many DHS as they can carry SHS due to the crit slot cost. THat means a mech with DHS will have less capacity but more dissipation than a mech that sticks with standard heat sinks. Of the two mechs with the same dissipation, one with SHS and one with DHS, the SHS one will have more heat capacity but also more weight spend on heat sinking ability, while the mech with DHS will have less heat capacity but also spend less weight on heat sinks.



What does it mean in practice?
Let's say you have 30 tons to worth with for weapons and heat sinks.
Mech 1) equips 23 single heat sinks and 1 PPC.
Mech 2) equips 2 PPCs and 16 Double Heat Sinks.


Mech 1 Heat Capacity: 53; Heat Dissipation: 2.3 HPS; Generates 3 HPS
Mech 2 Heat Capacity: 46; Heat Dissipation: 3.2 HPS; Generates 6 HPS

Mech 1 will last about 75 seconds before overheating. It will take him 23 seconds to recover his full heat capacity.
Mech 2 will last about 18 seconds before overheating. It wil ltake him 5.6 seconds to recover his full heat capacity.

Additional Examples:
Mech 3 has "Uber Duber Heat Sinks", which grant +2 capacity and +0.2 dissipation, and 2 PPCs.
Mech 3 Heat Capacity: 62; Heat Dissipation: 3.2 HPS; Generates 6 HPS
Mech 3 will last about 22 seconds before overheating. It will take him 19 seconds to recover his full heat capacity.

Mech 4 has "Limited Double Heat Sinks", which grant +1 capacity per sink and 0.2 dissipation, but the base capacity is only 20, and is equipped with 2 PPCs.
Mech 4 Heat Capacity: 36 Capacity, Heat Dissipation: 3.2 HPS, Generates 6 HPS
Mech 4 will last about 13 seconds before overheating. It will take him 11.25 seconds to recoer his full heat capacity.

Mech 5 has 16 Standard Heat SInk and 2 PPCs:
Mech 5 Heat Capacity: 46; Heat Dissipation: 1.6 HPS; Generates 6 HPS
Mech 5 will last about 10 seconds before overheating. It wil take him 28.75 seconds to recoer his full heat capacity.


The question we have to ask is:
Should Double Heat Sinks be an upgrade or not? Endo Steel generally is, Ferro Fibrous isn't, Artemis is pretty good and I believe it notable improves SRMs at least.
Then the question is - how much of an upgrade?


The current game already has engine heat sinks at double power. I don't get the feeling that anything broke from it, or the game pace has changed significantly. But it seems to have enabled a few different builds - you're not limited to Small Lasers anymore on a Jenner or Swayback. PPCs are closer than ever to be viable (but still need some work, and I don't think EMP is gonna cut it). Trial Mechs are still bad, unfortunately, since they don't benefit from any of these changes.
What do you think?

[Asmudius Heng]

They should give up on canon and make both Single and double heat sinks viable options with drawbacks and positives so that choosing which to take is a MEANINGFUL choice.

For the most part DHS are just straight better in any implementation.

Someone once posted some idea that made SHS not bad at dissipation, but better at raising your heat ceiling which DHS were better at dissipation but didn't raise the heat ceiling.

This seemed like an excellent way to made DHS a sidegrade not an upgrade and would promote a different play style using them.

Anyway, the slavish holding on to canon then tweaking slightly and badly is having issue sin this game when fresh perspectives that still fit the SPIRIT of BT could be achieved.