804 replies to this topic

[Nighthound]

Marowi, on 05 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you're dead-set against any player-control over canon factions, then creating a unit that purports to associate with a canon unit should be off-limits. The "Renegade" Northwind Highlanders would still have implications for the story, right? Clearly, that group would intend to associate with the Northwind Highlanders, and it would be reasonable for other players to interpret them as associating. When it comes to enforcement, however, no one is going to admit to "intent" to associate--assuming that association is what we're going to control. It will all come down to whether it's reasonable to interpret a name as association.

Sorry but I don't get that. .... Why would the Northwind Runaways have anything to do with the story? I can't remember reading a single reference to them. Never heard of them until I thought them up so why would they have anything to do with the ongoing story? They will not accompany the Northwind Highlanders in Operation Bulldog. Neither will the Knights of House Marik accompany the Knights of the Inner Sphere.

Marowi, on 05 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Is association something that we want to control? If I understand you right, then the answer is yes, because a strict "no player control over canon factions" rule would bar even association. (Why should some people have total control over the Gray Death Legion's "associates", for example? Here they're still assuming a lot of in-game authority that they're not entitled to.) I also think that's the only rule that doesn't devolve into a shades of gray problem; it's absolute liability, and is easily workable from the CSR standpoint.

Sorry but you understood me wrong, association is fine by me (at least I think it is .... association means to know someone, to hang out with them, to have some common ground with them, to be similar, right?). Control is the problem. And no one is talking about controlling all associates .... the Northwind Runaways will have no influence over the Southwind Lowlanders or the Northwind Renegades .... why would they? This would be a simple and easy case of first come first serve, as I bet you that I can come up with more than enough similar names for everyone.

[Damocles]

[Listless Nomad]

It would appear that a lot of people in this thread are missing a point of the mercs. As of right this second, no one can play at all, in any way shape or form, play as a Northwind highlander, a gray death legionarrie, or a wolf dragoon. I am fine with canon names being off limits. However, until the devs confirm that the big merc units will be made similar to factions - the aggrieved mercs have a point. It would be like the devs saying no one can join Davion or Kurita at all. Everyone must play as non canon mercs. Yes - the majority of mercs here founded units with famous canon names. Some might want control, but for others it was because there was no other way to claim association with the big merc units.

Realize this fact, ruminate on it, and cut them a little slack alright? Until the devs allow merc units to be npc factions - they have a legit right to be upset.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

I understand that people want to play what they think is 'cool' or have grown attached to. I get it. I really do, however when the guys running the game say 'No.' you play by their rules, or you don't play. Inspiration is awesome, Plagiarism sucks.

Yeah that's the right approach. Right so when you do not give the people what they want & they do not play what do you have? especially when a FREE MOD allows people RIGHT NOW to do this, but the we are licensed, makers of the GAME, owners of the IP blah blah blah will not? Yeah see how far you go with that. It is F2P now with the intention of drawing in enough people to create a stable foundation to then move onto people actually playing. ******* lots of people off early on................. yeah good strategy.

[Sassori]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yeah that's the right approach. Right so when you do not give the people what they want & they do not play what do you have? especially when a FREE MOD allows people RIGHT NOW to do this, but the we are licensed, makers of the GAME, owners of the IP blah blah blah will not? Yeah see how far you go with that. It is F2P now with the intention of drawing in enough people to create a stable foundation to then move onto people actually playing. ******* lots of people off early on................. yeah good strategy.

It is the right approach. I can't stand WoW, it's still making buttloads of money. I don't play League of Legends, and it's /wildly/ successful.

The point I'm making is this:

You Cannot Please Everyone.

They shouldn't even /try/. They'll fail.

Adapt or Die.

[wwiiogre]

Christopher,

Chuckie was invited to join, if he agreed to follow the same rules all of us agreed to follow. He chose not to follow the rules and make his own Merc Corps. And even after this happened we stated publicly that we welcomed his unit to be associated with NWH the same as ours was. And we publicly stated we were not NWH and had no say over who else wanted to be in NWH. Once again you are assuming things, that had you read this thread specifically in the first ten pages or so. You would know none of your statements regarding the stance of our part of the NWH are anything like you portray them to be.

I joined rather late to NWH yet thru the process of helping the club, somehow and against better judgement I was appointed a Captain of one of the training companies. What does that mean in MWO. Absolutely nothing. What does that mean in our club. It means I am in charge of organizing my own Company. Contacting all new players of the battalion, getting information, answering questions, planning training time, going over tactics, monitoring TS3, helping people setup MW4 free mektek game with TRO variants to represent MWO, sending greeting letters to new members, etc, etc, etc. It also means the people I meet, train and have fun getting to know, will then move onto the combat battalion, but more importantly will all have the same basic understanding of what we as the NWH are trying to do. What does it mean in MWO. NOTHING, zero, zip, etc.

I am forum registered (insert random number here), that is all I am. In the MWO game I am nothing. Same as anyone else. I want to be something in the game and eventually contribute to the story that PGI is appearing to make happen. Yet, I want to be the part of the story that appeals to me, which will not break the game or canon. I do not want control, never did. I just want to wear a badge, tag, patch of NWH. Same as some want to be clanners, other want to be House, etc.

hope that makes it clearer

chris

Chris

[Opus]

Here's the conversation I just had with a friend; Former USMC law officer

"hey what are copyrights infringement lawsuits like?"
"You don't want to go there""
"Why"
"You loose everything you have; not to the other suitor - but to the lawyers"

He just smiled

"oh" I replied


Guys you really need to consider what sort of danger your putting the developers, and publisher into...

to hell with your vanities, I want a playable game, not another 10 years of law suits....

Edited by Opus, 05 May 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Sassori]

You're missing my point Ogre. It's /exclusive/. It /excludes people/.

By associating with a canon /anything/ and /excluding people/ you are telling a would be player 'no'.

It's just a part of the Highlanders right? Well no, because that part of the group is still calling themselves the Northwind Highlanders. You're still associated with the canon merc group, which means it's a part of it.

As a canon playable group it either needs to be inclusive, or exclusive. That's the long and the short of it, by making this choice (Until Merc Groups become a faction, which I /really/ hope they do, I /do/ feel for you guys) PGI is going: We're excluding /everyone equally/. Which is really the only stance they could feasibly take. It's the only fair thing to do.

The other factions are inclusive right now so everyone can play them. /No One/ can play the canon merc groups, but, you can still be a Merc Group, just be an original one. It's a level playing field.

[Toothman]

Listless Nomad, on 05 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

It would appear that a lot of people in this thread are missing a point of the mercs. As of right this second, no one can play at all, in any way shape or form, play as a Northwind highlander, a gray death legionarrie, or a wolf dragoon. I am fine with canon names being off limits. However, until the devs confirm that the big merc units will be made similar to factions - the aggrieved mercs have a point. It would be like the devs saying no one can join Davion or Kurita at all. Everyone must play as non canon mercs. Yes - the majority of mercs here founded units with famous canon names. Some might want control, but for others it was because there was no other way to claim association with the big merc units.

Realize this fact, ruminate on it, and cut them a little slack alright? Until the devs allow merc units to be npc factions - they have a legit right to be upset.

I ran Clan Snow Raven in PPP. When we moved to MW3 on the Zone. Someone had already taken CSR. Did I whine and cry and stomp my feet? No. Even though I was pissed that someone had taken "my" clan name I realized that it didn't really belong to me and I'd just have to deal with someone being faster on the keyboard. Everyone else is just going to have to do the same thing. There are tons of great names out there to be used. Units will still be units, they will just have a shiny new paint job.

Jaroth Winson, on 05 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yeah that's the right approach. Right so when you do not give the people what they want & they do not play what do you have? especially when a FREE MOD allows people RIGHT NOW to do this, but the we are licensed, makers of the GAME, owners of the IP blah blah blah will not? Yeah see how far you go with that. It is F2P now with the intention of drawing in enough people to create a stable foundation to then move onto people actually playing. ******* lots of people off early on................. yeah good strategy.

So if I go over to your "FREE MOD" And call myself clan wolf. Its all cool? What happens when Clan Wolf (a) runs into Clan Wolf ( and Clan Wolf (c)?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

It is the right approach. I can't stand WoW, it's still making buttloads of money. I don't play League of Legends, and it's /wildly/ successful.

The point I'm making is this:

You Cannot Please Everyone.

They shouldn't even /try/. They'll fail.

Adapt or Die.

No the point is someone else is doing it already. You want to launch something new, then you must at the very least meet the current standard or exceed it. Oh look I do NOT have a business degree & I knew that.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 05 May 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[CloudCobra]

Was kinda wondering why they let people take cannon names like the one I have. Are these going to be in game names or something else I can't remember. If I have to change it at some point i guess i wouldn't care.

[Ethan Kell]

CloudCobra, on 05 May 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Was kinda wondering why they let people take cannon names like the one I have. Are these going to be in game names or something else I can't remember. If I have to change it at some point i guess i wouldn't care.

That's hard to say; maybe they just haven't thought that far ahead yet.

Personally, I chose a surname that I liked that I knew was in the universe and then literally ran a Google search for "popular boys names" and chose one I liked.

[Eagle HH]

My concern is more towards guilding. Am I wrong in that the only way to form a "Guild" would be to form a "Merc Corp"?

So one that wants to roleplay for House Davion will not be allowed to join a Guild/Merc Corp Unit?

And if Merc Corp Units by rule are not allowed to practice/roleplay any part of what is Canon then all that is left is a massive BattleTech world; where only the non-organized players get to delve into the BattleTech lore. While those that cherrish playing in an organized fashion with people they can stand to play with and have team dynamics and relationships built and have already contributed so much to the MWO community, all that is left for these folks is to make up a name that has nothing to do with the BattleTech universe and don't get caught proclaiming what is Canon or your operation will be shut down.

To me this seems to be what we're heading towards here. Online gaming exists not just for the multiplayer aspect but for organized team play as well and no two teams are ever the same because it is just the dynamics of playing with people. More than likely the people that are team oriented are going to steer clear of joining a faction to let the MWO engine delegate your role and who plays with you. The team oriented people will be looking for a Merc Corp with a well established team identity with similar gaming motives.

What does this leave? Roleplayers with involvement in the universe but lack the team-oriented aspect of the game VS. Team-oriented players that lack the roleplay involvement in the universe.

Am I seeing this the right way or am I wrong?

[Sassori]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 May 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

No the point is someone else is doing it already. You want to launch something new, then you must at the very least meet the current standard or exceed it. Oh look I do NOT have a business degree & I knew that.

There is no 'standard' for MW:O. It's not ever been done before. The so called 'Standard' you are trying to claim is player made leagues at best. MW:LL leagues /never/ had 70,000+ people involved. Ever. Those 'standards' do not apply.

If the current standard needed to be met or exceeded then why is it that Car's still suck for gas mileage when we've had cars with /far/ better gas mileage in the past that aren't even hybrids?

Point is: What they've decided is fair because it is impartial. Everyone's told Yes or No equally. Nobody likes being told No, but hey, in the real world it happens.

I'd really have loved a campaign mode but, not getting one of those either.

With the information we have the choices are simple if you want to play a Mercenary.

Make a new Merc Company not affiliated or related to the canon companies... or don't play a Merc.

Which makes sense if /they/ have plans /we/ don't know about for those companies. Maybe they don't want Wolf's Dragoons and GDL and Kell Hounds to be the biggest baddest boys around anymore and by allowing associate companies it throws that out of wack. I can't say, I don't know what they've got planned.

I do know that I'm choosing to play this game still even though I can't be a bandit/pirate or from my chosen 'faction'. I picked a different one, one that was /allowed/.

[Nighthound]

Listless Nomad, on 05 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

It would appear that a lot of people in this thread are missing a point of the mercs. As of right this second, no one can play at all, in any way shape or form, play as a Northwind highlander, a gray death legionarrie, or a wolf dragoon. I am fine with canon names being off limits. However, until the devs confirm that the big merc units will be made similar to factions - the aggrieved mercs have a point. It would be like the devs saying no one can join Davion or Kurita at all. Everyone must play as non canon mercs. Yes - the majority of mercs here founded units with famous canon names. Some might want control, but for others it was because there was no other way to claim association with the big merc units.

Realize this fact, ruminate on it, and cut them a little slack alright? Until the devs allow merc units to be npc factions - they have a legit right to be upset.

Sorry but am I the only one who thinks there is a HUGE difference between House Davion and the Northwind Highlanders? One is a faction and one is Unit. As it stands now House players AT LEAST (I'm not sure if they confirmed this exactly) have to work to be able to join, for instance, the Davion Heavy Guards (and I don't think it's a good idea at all to allow even that .... see above post for reasons). You are throwing stuff together that doesn't match.

When I read the DevBlog about Comunity Warfare and Roles, I thought, cool I can play for one House agains some of the other Houses, while the Mercs fight for control over Planets in the Pirate states and the Lone Wolfs can do either on a mission to mission basis. That is what I took away from those statements, including that some (I read most) canon units would be off-limits.

Now there are a few discussions going on here that are more or less in the same direction but not quite, and you are throwing it all into the same pot. Houses have nothing to do with Merc Units .... House Units would, but no one but me seem to care how that whole thing is going to be handled, so moving on. Claiming rights, Naming rights, association and control are completely different things (at least I think so ... I'm german so maybe I misunderstand some deffinitions here).

- Claiming of canon Units is of the Table. PERIOD! No need to talk about that.
- Naming of Units is one discussion and the most heated one.
- Association is one discussion and I for one think it is more a question of deffinition as a question if it should be allowed or not (please some explain to the dumb german over here the deffinition of associate .... as for an associate is someone I work with or met at the bar, it's not even a close relationship as I would call him Buddy or Firend or Coworker or somesuch)
- Control .... see claiming as it should cover the same discussion but maybe not (again can someone define the difference between Controling a canon Unit and Claiming on? I don't see a difference there)

[wwiiogre]

Christopher,

In game it is not exclusive, outside of the game in a private forum it is exclusive, yet it isn't. When you join anything, even the forum here at MWO you have to agree to follow the rules. EULA, etc. The same is true on any forum or group you join. How would PGI handle a user who joins and then declares they want to be a MOD? We did the same, sorry you are not a mod, but you can join just like everyone else. That user decided they didn't want to follow rules but wanted to make rules. So he made his own Merc unit. He now makes the rules for that unit. All is good. We wish him luck and hope all goes well for him and his unit. We even publicly have said so many times and continue to do so.

If we joined NWH faction, all we want is the same thing that is promised for all players. To drop with my friends. Like in any other mmo/multiplayer/fps. It is usually part of a mission or instance creator. We all log in, as friends, we all drop together. Simple, easy and standard in the industry and also said to be a part of this game.

What would happen if we sign up for a 12 v 12 and we bring only 8 people is the other 4 would be dropped with us. I am ok with that and that is how it should work. I won't know what their skills are or how well they will do. The person in our faction with the highest rank would be drop commander according to PGI statements, and that status could be passed to another, etc. I am ok with that. I plan on playing a lot by myself and in open pub matches, to grind experience and cbills and to learn every chasis and every role. If possible I want to play with friends. But, mainly I want to play and even with a group as large as ours, we will never be able to always have enough players to drop 12 v 12 every time. So we will team up when we can and drop with others when we can.

Part of why I have gone out of my way to make friends across all the Houses/Clans/Merc units, so when game launches if I cannot drop with NWH players, I will drop with GDL, SoR, SW, 1BBR, 1RR, House or Clan players that I know. Because I know they are competent and in a sim, professional players who understand teamwork are much more fun to play with for my own style. But sometimes I may just want to drop and blow stuff up. Who knows.

chris

[Sassori]

Eagle_HH, on 05 May 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

My concern is more towards guilding. Am I wrong in that the only way to form a "Guild" would be to form a "Merc Corp"?

So one that wants to roleplay for House Davion will not be allowed to join a Guild/Merc Corp Unit?

And if Merc Corp Units by rule are not allowed to practice/roleplay any part of what is Canon then all that is left is a massive BattleTech world; where only the non-organized players get to delve into the BattleTech lore. While those that cherrish playing in an organized fashion with people they can stand to play with and have team dynamics and relationships built and have already contributed so much to the MWO community, all that is left for these folks is to make up a name that has nothing to do with the BattleTech universe and don't get caught proclaiming what is Canon or your operation will be shut down.

To me this seems to be what we're heading towards here. Online gaming exists not just for the multiplayer aspect but for organized team play as well and no two teams are ever the same because it is just the dynamics of playing with people. More than likely the people that are team oriented are going to steer clear of joining a faction to let the MWO engine delegate your role and who plays with you. The team oriented people will be looking for a Merc Corp with a well established team identity with similar gaming motives.

What does this leave? Roleplayers with involvement in the universe but lack the team-oriented aspect of the game VS. Team-oriented players that lack the roleplay involvement in the universe.

Am I seeing this the right way or am I wrong?

Why would you not be able to delve into the 'Lore' as a new Mercenary Company? Last I knew Mercenary Companies sorta... worked for other people. That's what made them Mercenaries. You'll sign on with a faction, and go fight for them, therefor, you have access to all the same 'lore' as everyone else...

As for your units: Make a new Unit, only work for one faction. Presto, new faction unit I guess.

I'm pretty sure that guilds are mercenary companies, yes. I could be wrong, they haven't given us full disclosure as to how it's going to be yet.

@Ogre:

No, it's exclusive, period. You cannot have 'inclusive in game' and 'exclusive' out of game. You're either inclusive (Accepting all) or exclusive (accepting some). It doesn't matter what reason you guys had for that fracas with Chuckie, I didn't pay a lot of attention to it. As a Mercenary Company you guys were well within your rights to tell anyone to **** off that you felt like.

The problem is that right now, Northwind Highlanders /isn't/ a 'Faction'. It is a Canon Mercenary Company. A popular one, which people outside of your group may wish to be. Maybe you build up a big name, and people want to /be/ in the 2nd Kearny Regulars or whichever if it were a /faction/ they could do so by joining the northwind highlanders, and working their way up to get into the unit.

As far as we know, nobody is being told they can't play with their friends. Nobody is trying to exclude your mercenary company from playing together, or with others that your company is hired by. All anyone is being told is that mercenary companies have to be original.

I've seen you dance around this issue over and over again, and what it seems to be is this:

You want to play a Northwind Highlander. Period.

I want to play a Pirate and make a Pirate Band and conquer worlds in the periphery with my friends. We're both in the same boat right now, but at least you might be able to have northwind highlanders as a faction in the future.

Edited by Christopher Dayson, 05 May 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[CloudCobra]

I really do feel for the people who are big fans of cannon merc units like the NWHs and the GDL. I hope they have them as playble factions I would love to play Wolf's Dragoons(no clans yet so next best thing) but in the end someone is going to get left out as far as role play. Our fellow fans who love the Periphery for one. At some point the devs have to make some hard choices about how practical adding a new faction is vs demand. I happen to think there are enough ppl to make a merc faction fingers crossed. I even hope for a periphery faction at some point but in the end I for one am just happy this game is happening at all i had given up hope for years.

[Eagle HH]

It is still a separation of those organized teams that want to play as their favorite house faction let's say because you would have to join Davion and work your way up and have limited order and communication with your troops because you are not that of true organized team. The only way to do so would be to play Merc Corp but lose the association with your house/unit/whatever.

If you think about it, it really is bad for both sides...

Edited by Eagle_HH, 05 May 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[wwiiogre]

Associate and association are different words with different definitions

and actually can be defined in how they are used in the specific sentence.

In general association in the way it has been used is the same as implying that the noncanon merc corps unit Royal Highland Stewart Kearny Dragoons are from Northwind, are Highlanders, work or are implied to work with the Northwind Highlanders, may or may not be a subset or contracted subdivision of the NWH, etc.

Means we want to wear the patch of NWH, we know we are not NWH, we know we are not in control of NWH, we know we would have to follow the contracts allowed by PGI and probably pro Davion contracts as NWH in timeline are Davion/FEDCOM contracted. We have no control over who joins the faction NWH in the MWO game. We would as players have control over who are friends are and when we drop with friends we would be able to include the ones we want, which is how PGI have explained the mission/combat drops will work possibly.

chris