26 replies to this topic

[CoolLew]

Hey guys,

I am sure one reason I suck so bad at this game is the fact that I prefer to use "real-life" mech builds. I know it is not uncommon for pilots to modify their machines (like YLW), but in the novels I knew exactly what every mech was packing just by its name. It wasn't really until omni mechs, that there was a lot of "customization" (at least in the novels).

Does anyone else feel "nostalgialistic" to play real "stock" model mechs in this game?

[John Norad]

I would be completely happy if I could only pilot stock mechs and canon variants.
Perhaps minimal adjustments, like throwing out machine guns for heat sinks. But that's just me.

Maybe PGI could make that a separate game mode for that? It would be awesome!

Edited by John Norad, 11 November 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[JP Josh]

hum this thought can be put in with the trial only matches since those builds are stock!

next game mode ahoy!!!!!

[Kaspirikay]

JP Josh, on 11 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

hum this thought can be put in with the trial only matches since those builds are stock!

next game mode ahoy!!!!!

Thisthisthisthis

Trial only game mode lololol

[Wolfways]

I'd play stock mechs, but not with the current broken heat system.

[Sandpit]

uhm trail mechs ARE common mech builds lol

Heat isn't broken. Just don't fire off your weapons as fast and use chain fire

[Wolfways]

Sandpit, on 11 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

uhm trail mechs ARE common mech builds lol

Heat isn't broken. Just don't fire off your weapons as fast and use chain fire

Yeah? Try piloting a K3.

[Sandpit]

Wolfways, on 11 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Yeah? Try piloting a K3.

??
Check your TROs lol
All chassis have variants
These just aren't L1 Tech and 3025 era mechs

[Vapor Trail]

Sandpit, on 11 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

uhm trail mechs ARE common mech builds lol

Heat isn't broken. Just don't fire off your weapons as fast and use chain fire

Hope you like an average ten second wait between firing your weapons with single heat sinks.

With mechs designed around doubles it's going to be longer.

With single heat sinks and a stock build you're limited to TT's RoF as an average... though it's a lot easier to increase this average if you've got a ballistic and favor that more and your energy weapons less.

And if you've got a JM6-DG... go to town... the Gauss works just fine at 2.5x the fire rate.

[Sandpit]

Vapor Trail, on 11 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hope you like an average ten second wait between firing your weapons with single heat sinks.

With mechs designed around doubles it's going to be longer.

With single heat sinks and a stock build you're limited to TT's RoF as an average... though it's a lot easier to increase this average if you've got a ballistic and favor that more and your energy weapons less.

And if you've got a JM6-DG... go to town... the Gauss works just fine at 2.5x the fire rate.

I've run Trials lots of times and I can't think of one instance I've ever had to go 10 seconds between firing any kind of weapons. *shrugs* That's just me though

[Vapor Trail]

Sandpit, on 11 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I've run Trials lots of times and I can't think of one instance I've ever had to go 10 seconds between firing any kind of weapons. *shrugs* That's just me though

Not between one weapon and another, no. But between all of the main weapons as a group, as an average... yeah... otherwise you shut down.

Please note, I said 'as an average.' Basically if you're going to do a meaningful average, you simply take the time it takes for you to fire a particular weapon until you return to baseline heat. That's the average duty cycle for that weapon, on that mech.

If you have multiple weapons, you add the duty cycles together to get an average duty cycle for the entire mech.

For example the Awesome 8Q, with 3 PPCs. IIRC the Awesome 8Q comes stock with 28 heat sinks. This is a heat dissipation rate of 2.8. Meaning you get rid of 2.8 heat every second.

Firing a PPC generates 9 heat (supposed to be 10... but hey)... so 9 heat. Shoot one. You should return to baseline (barring environmental factors) 3.2143 seconds or so from the time the weapon fires. If you're going to make use of all three PPCs, if you fire them quickly, or as a linked strike, you will have to wait 3.2143seconds * 3 or 9.6429 seconds between firing the first PPC, and firing the first PPC again.

Now you could just fire one PPC at near max RoF... but then you're just favoring that one PPC over the other two. The average stays the same... 1 shot per weapon, every 9.6429 seconds. Fire faster than this, you build up heat. You build up heat, you have to cool down sometime. And the average firing rate stays exactly the same.

The only way you can change this is by changing either how much heat is generated (by firing the small laser for example), or by changing how much heat is dissipated (either by stepping into water, or having a heat sink destroyed, for two examples in different directions)

If your heat dissipation goes up, your average duty cycle comes down and your average rate of fire goes up.
If your heat dissipation goes down, your average duty cycle goes up and your average rate of fire comes down.

The math is simple.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 11 November 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[Bloody]

that might be fun if PGI did not change the combat model so drastically.

[Vermaxx]

Firing all your weapons as a group was not the idea of Battletech. It was about picking the best punch for the scenario.

The trial mechs are stock Battletech mechs. They have the same access to increased rates of fire as everything else. They also have the original mish-mash of differently ranged weapons like tabletop.

The only difference between trial mechs and custom mechs is optimization. The heat system trials use is exactly the same as tabletop. They can fire as many times as they could in tabletop, if you limit yourself to 'once per ten.'

Is this competitive against optimized mechs? That is a monstrously subjective question. For many good players, the answer is yes. For most people, the answer is no. This is not a function of terrible design or a glaring development flaw. It is a learning curve that, until the newbie videos, no one really had explained to them. Some people didn't need the explanation.

Classic mechs built around tabletop DHS are the only things 'screwed' by MWO. Classic mechs built around singles work just fine. You simply need far more self control, and probably far better aim, to matter.

[Sandpit]

Vapor Trail, on 11 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Not between one weapon and another, no. But between all of the main weapons as a group, as an average... yeah... otherwise you shut down.

Please note, I said 'as an average.' Basically if you're going to do a meaningful average, you simply take the time it takes for you to fire a particular weapon until you return to baseline heat. That's the average duty cycle for that weapon, on that mech.

If you have multiple weapons, you add the duty cycles together to get an average duty cycle for the entire mech.

For example the Awesome 8Q, with 3 PPCs. IIRC the Awesome 8Q comes stock with 28 heat sinks. This is a heat dissipation rate of 2.8. Meaning you get rid of 2.8 heat every second.

Firing a PPC generates 9 heat (supposed to be 10... but hey)... so 9 heat. Shoot one. You should return to baseline (barring environmental factors) 3.2143 seconds or so from the time the weapon fires. If you're going to make use of all three PPCs, if you fire them quickly, or as a linked strike, you will have to wait 3.2143seconds * 3 or 9.6429 seconds between firing the first PPC, and firing the first PPC again.

Now you could just fire one PPC at near max RoF... but then you're just favoring that one PPC over the other two. The average stays the same... 1 shot per weapon, every 9.6429 seconds. Fire faster than this, you build up heat. You build up heat, you have to cool down sometime. And the average firing rate stays exactly the same.

The only way you can change this is by changing either how much heat is generated (by firing the small laser for example), or by changing how much heat is dissipated (either by stepping into water, or having a heat sink destroyed, for two examples in different directions)

If your heat dissipation goes up, your average duty cycle comes down and your average rate of fire goes up.
If your heat dissipation goes down, your average duty cycle goes up and your average rate of fire comes down.

The math is simple.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there's the issue. It's not a heat issue it's a heat MANAGEMENT issue. If one player ANY player can manage the heat on a particular build, do decent damage (subjective), and not overheat? It's not a mechanic flaw in the game. It's a mismanagement flaw in the pilot
I can do GREAT damage with the trial Catapult and Atlas that are in rotation at the moment. I CAN'T run in an pew pew pew with impunity at all times without managing heat.
I can hit chain fire on the trial Cat and fire off MLs at a consistent basis without ever overheating and still having a steady rate of (meaningful? what exactly is meaningful?) damage.
I can run the Atlas and tear off damage all day long with the Gauss and ER LLs. I just can't click click click click click on the mouse button in a heated firefight. Again, this isn't a game flaw issue in my opinion, it's a pilot needing to learn to handle heat.
Trial mechs are GREAT for new players for just this reason. They are learning about just how rough heat is on a mech and when they begin making their own designs they'll have a good working knowledge on it

[Wolfways]

Sandpit, on 11 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

??
Check your TROs lol
All chassis have variants
These just aren't L1 Tech and 3025 era mechs

lol no idea what that means.

[Shalune]

CoolLew, on 11 November 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Hey guys,

I am sure one reason I suck so bad at this game is the fact that I prefer to use "real-life" mech builds. I know it is not uncommon for pilots to modify their machines (like YLW), but in the novels I knew exactly what every mech was packing just by its name. It wasn't really until omni mechs, that there was a lot of "customization" (at least in the novels).

Does anyone else feel "nostalgialistic" to play real "stock" model mechs in this game?

Absolutely, you are not alone. One of the first things I did when I got into closed beta was pick up the newly added AWS-8T and turned it into a thug http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thug

[LionOne]

Maybe a "hardcore multiplayer" mode where there are no mods allowed?

I'd be down with that.

[Inconspicuous]

Stock mode would be great!

[Shalune]

I'd love to see a stock mode too. My only suggestion would be to let people use owned mechs so long as they perfectly match the stock loadout in every way. To help with this, and something I think a lot of people would like anyway, would be a way to save loadouts to easily load and swap between. The stock loadout could be saved by default for all mechs.

[Sandpit]

Shalune, on 11 November 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

I'd love to see a stock mode too. My only suggestion would be to let people use owned mechs so long as they perfectly match the stock loadout in every way. To help with this, and something I think a lot of people would like anyway, would be a way to save loadouts to easily load and swap between. The stock loadout could be saved by default for all mechs.

That kinda defeats the purpose of a "stock" mode though. Stock should be just that. Stock only