69 replies to this topic

[Suskis]

I am a 3025 level 1 rules lover. Clans and level 2 tech ruined the game to me. But, rants aside: don't you think that some mechs could have been almost perfect, but for some weird reason the designer added one or more fatal flaws to them? What are the worst examples you recall?

Personally, loving the MAD Marauder as much as many of you, I think that not only the AC/5 is a questionable choice for such a hot mech, but that putting the AC/5 ammos in the otherwise empty left torso is complete nonsense. A single critical hit in said torso automatically blows up the mech!
(this comes from a bad game mechanic: the re-rolling of empty internal slots in case of critical hits)

[DocBach]

Being a 3025 lover you'd find that pretty much every 'Mech is flawed. You don't have near perfect designs like the Devastator or Pillager until they had to balance out the Inner Sphere with the much superior Clan 'Mechs -- though you could argue they too have the weakness of having XL engines and guns that explode.

But 3025 is literally full of terrible designs. The medium selection is horrible and most of the heavies are way underarmorered, undersinked, or both. Even the assaults are pretty terrible at their jobs with the exception of the Awesome and BNC-3S Banshee.

[ASC]

I don't think its fair to say that the mechs had 'fatal' flaws, otherwise no-one would use them.

But personally, i DON'T want there to be such a thing as a perfect mech. Part of the appeal is the personal preference over designs and the need to balance or compensate for vulnrabilities.

[Mason Grimm]

While I agree with you (and being a large proponent of the Marauder) I think flaws gives flavor to the mechs. I pilot a Marauder not because it has an iWin button stamped all over it but because, while being flawed, it is still a feared machine and thus more realistic.

What is the point of loading in to a game and looking around and seeing the same 4 mechs because they are the best in their class (for instance imagine all 24 people in a match were piloting a Devstator. BOOOOOOOOOOOOORING.

Also, with the ability to upgrade things it gives you something to work towards. Sure the MAD has some flaws but swap out the PPCs for ERPPCS, remove the AC5 and add an LBX10 and upgrade to DHS and you have a machine that is quite fearsome! (yes, I know other tweaks are needed to fit all this. I have the TT rules too).

[GargoyleKDR]

DocBach, on 24 April 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Even the assaults are pretty terrible at their jobs with the exception of the Awesome and BNC-3S Banshee.

The BNC-3S (which I personally like a lot) has a huge design flaw. If the right torso is destroyed, so are most of your offensive systems. This is especially noticable in MechWarrior over a TT game.

[Tadakuma]

I've said this before, but I believe that the original mechs from the 3025 & 3050 TRO were designed with deliberate flaws to limit their effectiveness.

Even the effective designs from those books were were saddled with odd choices, the extra 15 rounds of SRM ammon in the battlemaster. The odd weapons layout on the Quickdraw or even the placement of the MG ammo in the Warhammer's centre torso. I can see one or two of these mistakes slipping through play testing but nearly every design in the book has these quirks.

This leads me to conclude that it was done deliberately. I happen to think that these flawed designs actually make the level 1 game more fun then the post clan level 2 environment.

In a level 1 environment the Rifleman is actually a perfectly adequate mech, the Shadow Hawk with it's popgun armament has a place. Once optimised super machines come out (especially in the 3060+ books) the game lose some of the magic for me. All of a sudden you would have to be mad not to take an Awesome or Banshee 5S.

Edited by Tadakuma, 24 April 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I have long believed that the "deliberate flaws" were there as part of the gameplay balance and to prevent "I win" mechs. hence the reason why very few mechs were ever run uncustomised in previous versions of MW. All of the level 1 mechs have "flaws". which were based around the TT game mechanic and dont translate to a PvP online game. It's why there is so much argueing over the translation from one medium to another.

[AlanEsh]

Tadakuma, on 24 April 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

I've said this before, but I believe that the original mechs from the 3025 & 3050 TRO were designed with deliberate flaws to limit their effectiveness.

Even the effective designs from those books were were saddled with odd choices, the extra 15 rounds of SRM ammon in the battlemaster. The odd weapons layout on the Quickdraw or even the placement of the MG ammo in the Warhammer's centre torso. I can see on or two of these mistakes slipping through play testing but nearly every design in the book has these quirks.
...

I actually prefer the MG ammo in the CT. No matter where you put it, when it explodes it is going to kill your mech due to damage transfer. At least in the CT there is a good chance some other item will take the crit hit, unlike the MAD's "reroll until you hit me" AC ammo sitting there all alone

[Gigaton]

Angelicon, on 24 April 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

I actually prefer the MG ammo in the CT.

I was about to say the same. In MW:O, head might be the best choise due to small hitbox (of course, it can only handle 1 ton of ammo). At least if we get the usual multi hundred point ammo explosions of TT which instakill everything.

[Skylarr]

I will agree that some things are just wierd. Like why did they placed ammo an empty torsos. But, you need to take into account were a Mech is produced. All Houses can only produce certain quantities of different weaponry.

Lets say a Mech has a single PPC. It would be better with 2. The factory near by has a limit on the amount it can make. Some of its stock may be going to other designs or going to be sent off world to resuppy units in the field.

The Third Succession War (ended in 3025) was fought with technology that was considered mystical. Technological regression had allowed the survival of scant hightech factories, and the developing noble Mechwarrior families were forced to repair their machines with the gutted remains of their enemies'.

Gigaton, on 24 April 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

I was about to say the same. In MW:O, head might be the best choise due to small hitbox (of course, it can only handle 1 ton of ammo). At least if we get the usual multi hundred point ammo explosions of TT which instakill everything.

They should not allow this for MWO. I do not think you would survive the explosion in TT. Even if auto eject is active.

Edited by Skylarr, 24 April 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[Gigaton]

Skylarr, on 24 April 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

DO not place ammo in your head. You will not survive the ammo explosion. Even if auto eject is active.

You can't die in MW:O.

The 'mech won't usually survive it anyway.

[Skylarr]

Gigaton, on 24 April 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

You can't die in MW:O.

The 'mech won't usually survive it anyway.

I corrected myself.

Head damage does not transfer to the center.

Edited by Skylarr, 24 April 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

You can't always blame the Mechs for these flaws... ya know.

The "re-roll until you hit an occupied internal slot" rule is 100% bogus because shots are shots; if you shoot clear through someone's torso without hitting any critical componenets then you can't take that bullet back, reload it into your weapon, and shoot again. And Machinegun ammo would not explode with a large BANG like a charged capacitor, missile stocks, or large-caliber AC ammo. And how about the "fact" that large-caliber autocannon fire to shorter ranges, while smaller guns shoot farther? That is nothing but an artifact - this is a boardgame turned into a video game. Boardgames have to be fair, not realistic or optimized.

Mechwarrior's ability to be realistic and perfect is limited just as a Monopoly videogame is limited in its ability to serve as a real estate simulator. There will be rules crafted in specifically to make it balanced across all players.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 24 April 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Johannes Falkner]

Yeah, there is definitely some deliberate deoptimization going on. That being said though, you also have a more fluff driven design system. The Warhammer makes a good example. You can use the PPCs for ranged combat, or, when the enemy closes you can use your MLas, SLas, SRM6 and MG. Heat wise, it's an either or proposition and was designed like that on purpose. Many of the original clan mechs were also designed this way, missiles, or lasers, see Mad Dog. It wasn't until 3055 and later that mechs were deliberately designed to be heat efficient.

Other examples of mechs deliberately gimped:
Warhawk Prime (Why LRM-10 instead of DHS?)
Viper A (SRM6, really?)
Nova A (I like AMS, but not when it becomes a bomb)
Stormcrow B (UAC-20, good, going boom bad)
....

[MaddMaxx]

One other item not mentioned was that most Mechs were designed to have to fight against enemy tech other than just other Mechs. Aerospace, Tanks, Infantry all presented differing needs to be dealt with.

Take those elements off the battlefield, and many designs seem inadequate against just other Mechs.

[Anvil Dragon]

I agree they probably did it for some game balance (and possible a personal edge while playing knowing the flaws).

Flaws do seem a time honored tradition in most countries, so maybe they were trying to uphold this tradition. Politics, military bias, and coruption having as much a hand in things as the designers themselves.

Also removed the AC5 from the Marauder, rather just add a cup holder than have that thing and it's ammo on board.

[Skylarr]

Prosperity Park, on 24 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

You can't always blame the Mechs for these flaws... ya know.

The "re-roll until you hit an occupied internal slot" rule is 100% bogus because shots are shots; if you shoot clear through someone's torso without hitting any critical componenets then you can't take that bullet back, reload it into your weapon, and shoot again. And Machinegun ammo would not explode with a large BANG like a charged capacitor, missile stocks, or large-caliber AC ammo. And how about the "fact" that large-caliber autocannon fire to shorter ranges, while smaller guns shoot farther? That is nothing but an artifact - this is a boardgame turned into a video game. Boardgames have to be fair, not realistic or optimized.

Mechwarrior's ability to be realistic and perfect is limited just as a Monopoly videogame is limited in its ability to serve as a real estate simulator. There will be rules crafted in specifically to make it balanced across all players.

I do not agree with the idea that Crits transfer if there in nothing in that torso.

MG ammo will explode. Look at the AMX-13, or the M6 Linebacker or even the 9K22 Tunguska. All have only MGs. If their ammo is hit they will explode.

Edited by Skylarr, 24 April 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Sassori]

This also comes down to why overspecialization is bad in the mechwarrior universe. A good mech needs to be able to engage at all ranges /unless/ it is designed for specific role. Such as fire support or garrison or urban combat. (Yeah take an Urbanmech out into open space combat, that'd be funny).

The best mechs in the environment of the Mechwarrior Universe are not going to be overspecialized or they're simply dead. The King Crab is a good example of this. So over specialized to close combat (Having only an LRM 15 for range) that it really only became a threat in tight confines or area denial (Hold that pass Mechwarrior) and even then it was /easily/ destroyed by combined LRM/PPC fire.

One reason why the Marauder, Warhammer, Battlemaster, and Atlas are so feared is because they could put down the hurt at /any/ range. This is why you have mech's with an AC 5 and then an SRM 6 and some Medium Lasers. Because /some/ damage down range is better than none.

[Mason Grimm]

We usually have a house rule. If you shoot a crit and it doesn't hit anything; guess what, it doesn't hit anything.

Re-roll sucks

[Felicitatem Parco]

Skylarr, on 24 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

MG ammo will explode. Look at the AMX-13, or the M6 Linebacker or even the 9K22 Tunguska. All have only MGs. If their ammo is hit they will explode.

If their main batteries get hit, they will explode, but not if their 12.5mm ammo gets hit.. The AMX is loaded with 75mm cannon shots, the Tanguska is loaded with SAMs and 30mm, and the Linebacker the same. 30mm is considered an autocannon instead of a machinegun because one 30mm warhead is capable of nearly destroying an unarmoured vehicle.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 24 April 2012 - 08:18 AM.