69 replies to this topic

[Gigaton]

Mason Grimm, on 24 April 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

We usually have a house rule. If you shoot a crit and it doesn't hit anything; guess what, it doesn't hit anything.

Re-roll sucks

That's about as arbitary as the default model though. In the end it's the first 2D6 that dictates if you crit anything or not, the second just determines what exactly was it that you critted. If i used a house rule on that, I'd just assign -1 or -2 to the first roll depending on how empty the location was.

Prosperity Park, on 24 April 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

If their main batteries get hit, they will explode, but not if their 12.5mm ammo gets hit.. The AMX is loaded with 75mm cannon shots, the Tanguska is loaded with SAMs and 30mm, and the Linebacker the same. 30mm is considered an autocannon instead of a machinegun because one 30mm warhead is capable of nearly destroying an unarmoured vehicle.

Plus AMX-75's gun is autoloaded, not an autocannon. Personally I picture BTU "machineguns" as 20mm-30mm revolver or gatling style guns though. It makes far more sense.

Edited by Gigaton, 24 April 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[SideSt3p]

I don't play the TT. I always wanted to but I never had any friends who were interested or a gaming group that I could play with. So, take this from my perspective as a developer (software/DB etc...)

I have always built my 'Mechs (both on paper and in game) for a specific purpose. And most of the time, that purpose is how I prefer to play. That style of play is to put the hurt on at long range and then be able to finish them as they close in. As such I prefer a load-out with 1 Heavy Hitter (Guass rifle/AC20) then 2 PPCs or Large Lasers, and then finish my load with Mediums and maybe some SRMs. My goal is I don't have a real ammo dependancy. I can soften stuff up with my lasers/PPCs and use my Guass to finish things. In a longer range 'Mech I go for a slower speed and Jump Jets to have manuverability without wasting tonnage on a GIANT engine.

If I'm going to rock a massive short range AC with SRMs and Mediums I need a fast 'Mech. This is where I feel the Hunchback is flat dumb. It's slow, low ammo for it's one 'real' gun and no Jump Jets at all to atleast give you some variance in angles you can come in from to use that massive gun. Does that add "flavor'? Sure. Would that be a 'Mech a real person who could actually DIE IRL pilot? I know I wouldn't.

From a military standpoint you want a well rounded machine built to fulfill a fairly specific purpose (IMO!). So yea, who knows. In a team game though I can assure you I want somebody who's only job is to be annoying. And I want somebody to lure my opponent in so they get angry rush after that annoying Jenner then get creamed by 2 Awesomes and 6 PPC shots. Gotta remember, this isn't balanced around 1v1, it's a team game.

**EDIT** yea it's kind of rambly but just what I was thinking, I was actually thinking the same things the OP was thinking last night while flipping through some of my TROs...

Edited by SideSt3p, 24 April 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

The mechs are designed with"flawed" characteristics because tech sucked at the time, and for balance, even in TT (I gotta believe this is a consideration.) Which is one reason why so many are so loud as to minimize the MechLab's capabilities.

To a Munchkin like me... just means there's an additional challenge (Hardpoints) to work with.

The values of a well rounded machine (generalist) are a lie when it come to unit warfare. Specialist coordinating are where its at, and coordinated with your company before you drop. Role warfare cyclically supporting and supported by the mech, the company, and the role itself.

Support for long range, Assault up close and personal, and recon scouting. All specialist, all with a job. The TRO mechs are terrible for the most part at designs. At least the Marauder is mostly mid-long range (and does it well, which is why its loved). Further, defensive weaponry is also a lie, putting a small laser on an Awesome (for example, best I can think of), is like mounting a lone 30.06 on an aircraft carrier for close-in defense.

But that's my insane humble opinion, I am probably wrong.

"Combined arms is an approach to warfare which seeks to integrate different branches of a military (in this case, the different roles) to achieve mutually complementary effects (for example, using infantry and armor in an urban environment, where one supports the other, or both support each other). Combined arms doctrine contrasts with segregated arms where each military unit is composed of only one type of soldier or weapon system. Segregated arms is the traditional method of unit/force organisation, employed to provide maximum unit cohesion and concentration of force in a given weapon or unit type."

"One of the first instances of combined arms was the Battle of Cambrai, in which the British used tanks (Assault), artillery (Support), infantry (Recon), small arms and air power (Recon/Support) to break through enemy lines.^[1] Previously such a battle would have lasted months with many hundreds of thousands of casualties. Co-ordination and pre-planning were the key elements, and the use of combined arms tactics in theHundred Days Offensive in 1918 allowed the Allied forces to exploit breakthroughs in the enemy trenches, forcing the surrender of the Central Powers."

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 24 April 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think "defensive weaponry" is to take out the BattleTech equivalent of a 4-man RPG squad, not a cluster of small armoured vehicles. I mean, it's easy enough for a single small unit to approach danger-close and bear it's anti-armour weaponry... but all it takes is a single small laser or a Mech-mounted machinegun array to blast isolated infantry.

[wwiiogre]

We had the same rule, except you crossed off that specific roll again, cause the crit spots can be hit, so that slot is gone, which would explain why anyone would put ammo into an otherwise empty torso. Cause then it is 1 in 12 instead of reroll until you hit it.

slows down ammo booms, makes the table top game way better and gives every mech a chance even the commando and Phoenix Hawk.

chris

[Vexgrave Lars]

Prosperity Park, on 24 April 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

I think "defensive weaponry" is to take out the BattleTech equivalent of a 4-man RPG squad, not a cluster of small armoured vehicles. I mean, it's easy enough for a single small unit to approach danger-close and bear it's anti-armour weaponry... but all it takes is a single small laser or a Mech-mounted machinegun array to blast isolated infantry.

But there is no infantry in MWO...No tanks..as far as I know (sadly), and limited air power (Air Strikes).

[Felix Dante]

Suskis, on 24 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

I am a 3025 level 1 rules lover. Clans and level 2 tech ruined the game to me. But, rants aside: don't you think that some mechs could have been almost perfect, but for some weird reason the designer added one or more fatal flaws to them? What are the worst examples you recall?
Personally, loving the MAD Marauder as much as many of you, I think that not only the AC/5 is a questionable choice for such a hot mech, but that putting the AC/5 ammos in the otherwise empty left torso is complete nonsense. A single critical hit in said torso automatically blows up the mech!
(this comes from a bad game mechanic: the re-rolling of empty internal slots in case of critical hits)

I think most of the original Clan mechs were 'gimped" when they first came out.
Did you notice that almost every single one had a Ferro-Fibrous or Endo-Steel in it's head? Also 90% of the Omni configurations overheated too easily, which they claimed was because the Clanners preferred one-on-one combat and direct confrontation, using maximum damage potential, or some such thing...So: "Gimp."

The Marauder had an AC 5 for two reasons IMHO...Because it overheated too much. (AC-5 only did 1 heat) and it matched the original robotech picture they based the design on. The ammo was in the torso because otherwise they would probably put it in the Center Torso (most heavily armored section) for protection, as several other 3025 mechs did. Besides, without CASE involved and the newer "Floating Crit" rule, it's a moot point. Ammo is nasty where-ever you put it. Even in the Head. Doing that, actually lowers a mech's battle-value as I understand it.

[Mason Grimm]

Gigaton, on 24 April 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

That's about as arbitary as the default model though. In the end it's the first 2D6 that dictates if you crit anything or not, the second just determines what exactly was it that you critted. If i used a house rule on that, I'd just assign -1 or -2 to the first roll depending on how empty the location was.

Arbitrary or not, it's what we do.

Roll the dice to check for critical: "YES, Critical Hit!!!!!"
Roll the dice to determine location: "Damn it!!! I didn't hit anything. I guess it punched through an already existing hole or just didn't impact anything critical"

The end.

It works for us, speeds up games and doesn't add a level of complexity to our already overtaxed nerd brains.

[Snotling]

Vexgrave Lars, on 24 April 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Further, defensive weaponry is also a lie, putting a small laser on an Awesome (for example, best I can think of), is like mounting a lone 30.06 on an aircraft carrier for close-in defense.

Defensive weaponry is extremly important. thats why every single tank of today has at least one mg. if you have some spread out infantry with anti-tank/mech weapons. your 120mm, or your bih shiny gaus rifle will be of little effect

In a perfect world you have supporting infantry for that job. but would you bet your life on it?

[Sassori]

If you're going to use 'original' don't /ever/ use the word Robotech. It was Macross that was the original. /NERDRAGE!!!

Anyways, this whole idea of specialists is funny as hell. You have to remember modern armies today? MUCH BETTER SUPPORT STRUCTURE than in BattleTech. Communications are another thing. There wasn't world wide communication like there is now, why? Because Aerospace fighters took out your communications satellites.

It was very common to fight unsupported for unknown lengths of time. A specialist in those conditions DIES. Period. No if's, and's, or buts.

It's sorta like going back to the dark ages in a lot of ways, that's why a lot of people saw the Mech like a midevil knight.

[wwiiogre]

and Gundam and Dougram I believe, but being so old nerd fog has hit

chris

[Vexgrave Lars]

Snotling, on 24 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Defensive weaponry is extremly important. thats why every single tank of today has at least one mg. if you have some spread out infantry with anti-tank/mech weapons. your 120mm, or your bih shiny gaus rifle will be of little effect

In a perfect world you have supporting infantry for that job. but would you bet your life on it?

True.. Real World..
But the grand arena we are waiting for, MWO has no need of such things, because they wont be part of the game. No infantry, No tanks, No hovers, No Helo's.. and we don't even know if we can shoot down an inbound airstrike. Sorry, the munchkin in me tells me, 1/2 ton extra armor is a better way to go.

[Sassori]

Well yeah but he was talking specifically about the Marauder, which was from Macross. Zentraedi officers battlepod.

Also @ Vex: Munchkin in you... that says it's you. There will always be min/maxers, and I am one in some games but I also try to do so with respect to the lore at hand.

Will I be putting machine guns on mechs in MWO? Dunno yet. I might just cuz they're zero heat and damage is damage in a slug fest

[wwiiogre]

Vexgrave,

PGI says no other units on board at launch but specifically have stated in response to my own question that in the future they want to add vehicles, vtols, aero, infantry and all the glory of combined weapons. So take your extra half ton of armor now, but that may change in the future. I surely hope so. I also hope we can use AA mechs to shoot at incoming aero strikes and that they are very hard to hit and really fast and dangerous looking. Cause then when that Jagermech pilot gets the kill that took out the other teams precious aero asset that their commander wasted a whole module on, it will be twice as sweet. And yes I would take a Rifleman or Jaegermech or even a BlackJack cause it could be usefull in an AA mode for my team as well as being a useful support mech.

chris

[Sassori]

That would be sweet. I just never understood why AC 2s and AC 5's were considered AA when pretty much every Aerospace fighter worth their salt can take that kind of light damage with no problem.

[Orzorn]

Flaws add flavor and realism to mech designs. No vehicle in real life is perfect either. There is always some drawback or design flaw, either purposely built in because the vehicle wasn't designed for it (such as a vehicle having bad acceleration), or accidentally put in (batteries exploding).

If you'll excuse me, I have to go remove that 11th useless heatsink from my Urbie.

[wwiiogre]

AC2's in the table top were amazing in that they could be used as long range golden bb's or crit seekers. And most Aero units you face are very light. And a full round volley of two ac5s and two ac2s is 14 points equivalent of a PPC hit and almost a medium laser hit. That will wreck most vtols and the lighter aero's. If the aero's take a second run, it can kill them. The large laser version of the rifleman with ac5's is even more devastating with 26 points of possible damage.

chris

[Orzorn]

Christopher Dayson, on 24 April 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

That would be sweet. I just never understood why AC 2s and AC 5's were considered AA when pretty much every Aerospace fighter worth their salt can take that kind of light damage with no problem.

The rules for Aerospace are different than other vehicles:

Quote

Damage Thresholds: Each armor facing has a Damage
Threshold equal to 10 percent of its full armor value, rounded
up. If the damage from a single hit exceeds this threshold,
critical damage can result. (On Large Craft, a single hit means
the damage from all the weapons in a bay.) Damage Thresholds
are fixed values; they do not change regardless of how much
armor damage a location receives during a game.
SI Damage: If a hit to a location inflicts 1 or more points of
damage to the SI, critical damage can result.
Lucky Hits: Any successful to-hit roll that is also a natural 12
(a 6 on each die) also may cause critical damage. If an attack
targets multiple locations, such as with a cluster weapon, only
the first Attack Value grouping assigned to a location can
cause critical damage with a lucky hit.

And the crits these cause aren't just normal crits that take out a piece of equipment. Crits can cause the fighter to lose control, crew members can die, landing gear can be damaged, etc. It can get really bad. So AC-2s and AC-5s have the range to actually fight Aerospace (remember that Aerospace can travel across many many hexes in one turn), and most of those mechs mount 4 or so ACs, so if any of those hit it could be catastrophic. Additionally, ACs cause little heat, so you can continually fire turn and turn, making any given area a total dead zone for any Aerospace units.

[Vexgrave Lars]

wwiiogre, on 24 April 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Vexgrave,

PGI says no other units on board at launch but specifically have stated in response to my own question that in the future they want to add vehicles, vtols, aero, infantry and all the glory of combined weapons. So take your extra half ton of armor now, but that may change in the future. I surely hope so. I also hope we can use AA mechs to shoot at incoming aero strikes and that they are very hard to hit and really fast and dangerous looking. Cause then when that Jagermech pilot gets the kill that took out the other teams precious aero asset that their commander wasted a whole module on, it will be twice as sweet. And yes I would take a Rifleman or Jaegermech or even a BlackJack cause it could be usefull in an AA mode for my team as well as being a useful support mech.

chris

And when (if) we get that far (mixed units) I will care. Hasn't anyone else taken note that the mechs produced (so far) fit specific roles (not pilot roles), and don't have severely deficient Mech to mech combat focus? I think its brilliant that PGI has gone this far with that.

As for flavor/ canon respect.. LOL, enjoy your flavor.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Orzorn, on 24 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Flaws add flavor and realism to mech designs. No vehicle in real life is perfect either. There is always some drawback or design flaw, either purposely built in because the vehicle wasn't designed for it (such as a vehicle having bad acceleration), or accidentally put in (batteries exploding).

If you'll excuse me, I have to go remove that 11th useless heatsink from my Urbie.

But... that one's for the cockpit cigar lighter! Yes, we Urbie pilots need a heatsink for the cigar lighter alone; we smoke Atlas cigars.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 24 April 2012 - 09:42 AM.