234 replies to this topic

[Vermaxx]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Well, we can't control what the community wants to talk about.

But I would like to point out that us "naysayers" about heat balance are basically now seeing some predictions coming true - we see more PPCs, LLs and so on out in the field now. DHS in the engine was already a big boost to these weapons - if you stick with 1-2 PPCs, you can do okay even with 1.4 outside-engine DHS. Just give us the last 0.6 there, and we may have a reasonable balanced weapon system, at least under DHS. It's not perfect to me, to be honest - IMO, the weapons should be balanced around single heat sinks, not double heat sinks, and then DHS and future tech levels would need to be nerfed so they are balanced against SHS and Tech LEvle 1 weapons - if you don't do this, we still are left with stock mechs being weak.

But at least with DHS balancing ballistics vs energy weapons, we're getting somewhere.

We still may have to look into Small and Medium Lasers, though - under DHS they spike a lot in their damage/ton efficiency. It could be this may be irrelevant since you cannot "boat" enough due to hardpoint limitations to make it a problem. We'll see.

I don't know if we're seeing more PPCs, they are still monstrously hard to use - much more so than cannons. Maybe it is because most hardpoints are in arms, I dunno. Large lasers were unbalanced before DHS, due to having lower heat than tabletop and higher damage. Now that there are DHS floating around, large lasers are even more attractive than they used to be.

I'll admit that DHS are 'better' than singles for most people, so they were in general a net gain. Everyone with the elite tree unlocked is getting AROUND 1.9 though, so why not just give us 2.0 to start with?

As to the scare of boating, no I don't think it is a concern either. The hardpoint system keeps the numbers possible low. The Jenner and Cicada can carry 6 mediums, and ONE HUNCH can carry 9. The "lights" are small enough that their balance will be collisions. The Hunch can get neutered pretty easily because it has a hunch.

[DivineEvil]

-DHS must work as 2.0 power, because they're DHS.
-If not, Engine HS (10x minimum), both single and double, must work with lower power (0.7) since they would use a fraction of their power to remove excessive heat from the engine, while any extra HS must work at optimal power (1.0) since they're managing an outer grid.
- Critical slots of lighter mechs must be reduced or separated among different variants, so that using slower mechs will allow for more DHS, and lighter mechs would naturally run on SHS, and upgrading them to DHS would offer limitations for layout. Right now Lights and Assaults can be loaded with equal amount of any, and for the same reason Lights can manage physically ridiculous builds as long as there's free weight.
- Energy based Mechs must feature easier DHS installation, while variants using ballistics might have to decide between having heavier bulk weapons or greater amount of DHS.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"Everyone with the elite tree unlocked is getting AROUND 1.9 though, so why not just give us 2.0 to start with?"

Would that not provide everyone with Elite a 2.5 DHS? If a 1.4 is not a DHS, then certainly a 2.5 is not a DHS. How about a compromise. Leave the 1.4 and set the Perks at Elite to make a true 2.0 DHS. That way the Perks would have a true value but would not totally be required if one decided the SHS was just a better fit...

[Bubba Wilkins]

MaddMaxx, on 16 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Would that not provide everyone with Elite a 2.5 DHS? If a 1.4 is not a DHS, then certainly a 2.5 is not a DHS. How about a compromise. Leave the 1.4 and set the Perks at Elite to make a true 2.0 DHS. That way the Perks would have a true value but would not totally be required if one decided the SHS was just a better fit...

People are seeing an average rate of 1.8 ish depending on build due to the 2.0's in the engines and the 1.4's outside.

15 DHS = 27 H/10s/15= 1.8
You get 15% for the elite 2x bonus of the base skills = 2.07 effective cooling per DHS (based on that 15DHS build)

True DHS across the board would result in a 2.3 H/10s rating per DHS.

[fxrsniper]

And I stand correct 290 is the largest engine for the Awesome so now let go you were wrong now get over your self

[Lootee]

The stock AWS-9M comes with a 320XL engine.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 18 November 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[MWHawke]

DivineEvil, on 16 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

- Critical slots of lighter mechs must be reduced or separated among different variants, so that using slower mechs will allow for more DHS, and lighter mechs would naturally run on SHS, and upgrading them to DHS would offer limitations for layout. Right now Lights and Assaults can be loaded with equal amount of any, and for the same reason Lights can manage physically ridiculous builds as long as there's free weight.
- Energy based Mechs must feature easier DHS installation, while variants using ballistics might have to decide between having heavier bulk weapons or greater amount of DHS.

-Don't you think the 3 slots is already a severe limitation?
-Ballistic weapons are already decidedly bulky.

[FiveDigits]

Have the DHS values been touched in yesterday's patch? I saw some posts of people claiming it felt like we went to all 1.4HSs. I myself didn't get the impression that heat efficiency got worse though.

Did anybody test or check the XML files yet?

Beyond that, it's sad that PGI still remains silent about the DHS issue.

[Tuhalu]

Repeating myself from another thread...

Quote

On a Cicada with 4x MPL and 17 DHS I fired 5 volleys in a row and waited for heat to return to 0 on River City without moving around. Took ~35 seconds. I then immediately repeated the test on chain fire mode and it still took ~35 seconds. With a possible error of ~0.5 seconds, that's a +- 1.5% margin of error.

5 heat per MPL. 4 shots = 20 heat. 5 volleys = 100 heat.

100 heat/35 seconds = 2.85 heat per second +- 0.05 heat (so 2.8 - 2.9 heat).

That's a 28-29 heat sink equivalent for 17 double heat sinks. By the current theory, I should be seeing 29.8 heat sinks, which is within 5% of 28.5 (ie. pretty much not that much off, but a little suspicious).

It's also possible that all heatsinks are now 1.67 heat sinks. Or engine heatsinks are still 2.0 and the additional are all 1.3. It's not possible to tell with a single point of data. If we could see further testing done with differing amounts of DHS, we could see if we could derive a change in the current formula.

Edited by Tuhalu, 21 November 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[ericbrown84]

FiveDigits, on 12 November 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

The two points you made:

• 0.2 / 2.0 DHS are not OP.
  
• Only engine-internal DHS are true DHS, externals are 0.14 / 1.4 which favors Lights and Mediums.

can not be stressed enough and need to be repeated ad nauseum until PGI acknowledges that they misjudged the situation and give us proper 0.2 / 2.0 DHS across the board.

I fully agree on that.

I'd also like to repeat a suggestion that would give SHS a purpose beyond being cheap:

• SHS cool 0.1 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0
  
• DHS cool 0.2 HPS and increase total heat capacity by 1.0

This would allow builds with (many) SHS increased alpha strike capability while DHS would provide better sustained damage.

^This, everybody like this sh*t.

[MustrumRidcully]

FiveDigits, on 21 November 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Have the DHS values been touched in yesterday's patch? I saw some posts of people claiming it felt like we went to all 1.4HSs. I myself didn't get the impression that heat efficiency got worse though.

Did anybody test or check the XML files yet?

The XML files didn't seem to change for DHS. But we cannot entirely discount the possiblity that the server uses different values.

But it seems tests still validate the 2.0 / 1.4 implementation.

Quote

Beyond that, it's sad that PGI still remains silent about the DHS issue.

They replied to it once, claiming it was working as intended. Since it seems they didn't change anything in this patch...

[Dethl0k]

The reason you dont see threads about it is because we CANT make theads about it because they get locked and deleted. There is no freedom of speech anymore on here. Any thread giving negative feedback is cleaned up so you have the illusion of everything going perfectly.

[FiveDigits]

Dethl0k, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

The reason you dont see threads about it is because we CANT make theads about it because they get locked and deleted. There is no freedom of speech anymore on here. Any thread giving negative feedback is cleaned up so you have the illusion of everything going perfectly.

Tinfoil hat much?
Why is this thread open then?

[Dwigo]

Squid von Torgar, on 12 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

PGI stated that having play tested 2.0 DHS they were totally OP. Garth himself revealed that his Jenner fitted with DHS was able to core an Atlas in 3 seconds.

How exactly do DHS help you core an Atlas in under 3 seconds? You are still limited in the amount of guns you can have and unless he had some magic +damage DHS this is complete BS.

[FiveDigits]

Dwigo, on 21 November 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

This is complete BS.

FTFY