44 replies to this topic

[Dr Warp Effect]

I have done over a decade of custom programming for business applications. 25% of the usual charge is to cover the user interface to make it user friendly. Even in this short topic discussion multiple people have said they have inadvertently made the same kind of mistake. This is NOT the kind of mistake your customer should experience. There should be separate buttons to initiate buying anything, one for MCs, the other for credits. Purchase windows should clearly indicate what currency is involved in them. The confirmation window for the purchase should also indicate what currency is involved, show your current balance, and the new balance after you go through with the transaction. For those that get annoyed with too many confirmation windows, there should be a setting the user can set that foregoes confirmation windows. If someone checks that, they should not complain if they make a mistake. Proper customer programming should HELP the customer avoid mistakes. The current interface PROMOTES customer errors. It is pouring salt on the wound to support such a mistaken interface with a "sorry no refunds" policy. Since this game is in perma-beta such mistakes are most likely to continue and/or only be fixed gradually. Most code projects begin with design planning to avoid these obvious pitfalls.

[aspect]

League of Legends has a whole "refund" page where you can get refunds on pretty much anything you purchased including with paid currency, even if you've played the characters. It's completely automated, and there's a fixed number of refunds you are ever allowed. If it works for them, I'm sure it would work OK here if it's something you haven't used.

I accidentally bought some worthless skill with GXP the other day instead of MXP, put in a ticket and no refunds were offered. I think it was mostly a database issue though. Not a big deal for me...mech purchase would be a lot worse.

[Mercules]

renahzor, on 12 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

It's always the customer's fault for not being sure.

It usually is... but companies usually refund such things to stay on their good side because customers usually can't admit that to themselves. My company has a device(USB) with prepaid usages for the software on it. Usually there is at least several hundred dollars on that device and if you lose it it is not refundable. I've never seen one person lose a second USB key.

renahzor, on 12 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Plus being able to return something unused for a full refund in a limited time frame totally isn't standard practice for purchasable items across the industry or anything, and certainly isn't something that could be programmed into the game, way too tough.

Computer industry? It's not standard practice to get refunds for things purchased. Most "software" and "media" is non refundable once opened.

[ollo]

Mercules, on 12 November 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Why? I do tech support and in my experience, the more confirmation boxes/screens you put in front of someone, the more you carefully word something to be specifically clear, the more they just click past it.

One piece of software I support specifically says, "It is recommended that you create a back before upgrading the software. Would you like to close the installer and create a backup file now? Yes/No?" I can't even count the number of calls about how our installer crashes endlessly no matter what they do when all they had to do was READ THE MESSAGE. We did that purposefully so that they would have to READ THE MESSAGE.


"*click* *click* *click* *click* *click* See it just crashed again."
"Can you go through it a bit slow and read off each screen to me while you do so?"
"Sure..."
Several screens later, "...do you want to close the... Oh... I see what is happening."

As having to bother with IT support myself, i'm generally on your side here. However, as i already said, the game makes the same fault as Vista here by inquireing the OK from the user in an inefficient way. There's a difference, e.g., between spending some CB on a heatsink and huge MC on an assault mech. The game teaches us by it's behaviour in terms of popups that it's basically the same. It is, if you don't look closely, but in reality it'a gigantic difference.

I don't like popups like this because of these issues, but in this particular case PGI is doing everything wrong:

• Your confirmation is required even for minimal spendings
  
• Your confirmation is required numerous times (Change tabs? Apply 4-figure customization? Save customization? <-- WTF, of course, i already told you i'd buy the stuff without knowing what it costs in the end, and why shouldn't you save the config, what does happen if i click no - have i bought but not installed it or is everything cancelled or what!?)
  
• It is asked for at the most inappropriate time (when beginning customization where it's not clear if you should be warned)
  
• There is no difference visually between consequences (Spent time or spend money? Peanuts or life savings?)

You don't read the message if you expect the popup and (at least assume to) know what it's telling you because you have seen the popup too often. You won't notice if it says "Do you really want to save the file?" or "Do you really want to delete the file?" if you clicked save 1000 times and save and delete are placed right next to each other.




Also the wording is an important part, the popup hase to be more dramatic the more drastic the consequences are.

Another good example (unfortunately only in german) of what you ca do wrong is the following diaogue:


It says something like this:
Deletion Inquiry
Action:
predelete
predelete undo
real delete
delete nothing

...and i assume it reqires login to "delete nothing" while "cancel" will do the same without login, apart from the fact that no one has ever heard of predeletion...

[Xeven]

Honestly with the massive bugs in the Mechlab, the chunkiness of the Mechlab and the fact it is still beta and they are making HUGE changes to stuff in patches that affect the things you purchased, they should not be charging us for anything. You buy something today and tomorrow it gets nurfed...what kinda crap is that? Like buying a car that gets 25 mpg the day you buy it but resets to 10 the day after. It is a horrible way to treat customers.

[ollo]

Mercules, on 12 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Computer industry? It's not standard practice to get refunds for things purchased. Most "software" and "media" is non refundable once opened.

As someone said, it in fact is, in other, more matured(?) games. Plus, we're not buying "software" or "media" here, we're buying up to 100 tons of death in a myomer-muscled bipedal machine sporting big-*** lasers and stuff that have been built with 1000 hours of sweaty hard work by engineers and that are fueled by the tears of 1000 (half-)orphans which once had a parent unfortunate to face you (also, they have STD or XL engines, but i'm sure the main thing that keeps them running is i fact tears of orphans).

[focuspark]

The OP agreed in the initial post it was his/her mistake. Why is everyone telling the OP to suck it up?

That said, I agree that you need to look closely when spending money in any stiutation. Don't get caught buying a mirror wrapping in an iPad sticker for $200 (for example). However, since MWO is going to be an MMO, and MMOs are customer service oriented it is in PGI's best interest to make the UI more helpful by adding additional warnings about spending MC; if for no other reason that to reduce customer support calls and associated costs.

[Tarman]

I agree that the spending interface is sketchy and vague, especially the MXP and GXP buttons. Simply moving them apart would make a misclick far less likely. Yes, people need to be careful when pushing spending buttons, but that's not an excuse for a sloppy interface.

[AC]

I don't think they can open Pandora's Box by allowing refunds.... BUT......


The user interface right now with respect to MC vs Cbills and GenXP vs mechXP is horrid. Some of the things wrong are Human Computer Interface 101 issues. (And I would assume a game company would have an expert in this on staff.) The things they violated with respect to HCI is:

1) Buttons are small and close together increasing the chance of misclicks
2) Text on buttons is very small
3) Buttons have different colors, but not highly contrasting colors. It is easy to get them mixed up.

Edited by AC, 12 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[Suko]

I would chalk your story up to personal error. HOWEVER, it is easy to accidentally purchase products with MC. The purchasing process for C-Bill and MC is nearly identical, and this will lead to accidental MC purchases because our brains go through the purchasing process for mechs/equipment almost on auto-pilot. They need to add one more confirmation window to make it so your brain doesn't just click "Yes" when prompted. Example:

Click Buy with MC ---> "Are you sure you want to buy this mech? Irreversible blah blah blah" ---> Player clicks YES ---> "You are about to spend xxx MC on this purchase. Are you sure?" ---> Player Clicks YES and it is done.

One last way to make it fool-proof is to reverse the order of YES and NO for the final confirmation. This will prevent people from blindly clicking YES without actually thinking and reading the warning.

[ollo]

focuspark, on 12 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

The OP agreed in the initial post it was his/her mistake. Why is everyone telling the OP to suck it up?

That said, I agree that you need to look closely when spending money in any stiutation. Don't get caught buying a mirror wrapping in an iPad sticker for $200 (for example). However, since MWO is going to be an MMO, and MMOs are customer service oriented it is in PGI's best interest to make the UI more helpful by adding additional warnings about spending MC; if for no other reason that to reduce customer support calls and associated costs.

Please, no additional warnings! There are already too many of these in the game. Instead, have warnings only where they are due, and perhaps make them more distinguishable in terms of "I spend money" vs. "I spend time". It would also help to distinguish the buttons first - if you decide or click right when starting the process, there's less need to inquire if someone has taken the right choice in the first place.

If green and red buttons are too hard for PGI, at least make them green and blue/yellow/purple or whatever. From the currencies and what they represent, from the top of my head i'd consider a bleached out, almost white yellow for CB and a dark purple for MC fitting - Diablo and Borderlands have established a meaning to the colors i guess.

[renahzor]

Mercules, on 12 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Computer industry? It's not standard practice to get refunds for things purchased. Most "software" and "media" is non refundable once opened.

Computer industry perhaps not as a whole, but certainly for the MMO video game market it is. The last "big" game that is a holdout to this is EVE online because the entire game has a player run economy so it really is Caveat Emptor, as they cant really issue refunds on stuff you buy from another player. Plus they encourage scamming anyway by tricking people into clicking wrong buttons, posting deliberately wrong information etc, which is essentially whats happening here.

Most MMOs now not only have an *extremely* clear interface for buying items, using popups only when necessary and not as a standard catchall UI design, but most also allow ingame refunding of even the most mundane and seemingly trivial misclick purchase within a reasonable time frame. Beyond that, I can't think of a single other instance of a company flat out refusing refunds of virutal currency on virtual items. They already have your money, the ONLY reason for PGI to refuse these requests is either horrible database design, or simply knowing that those people who are screwed are very likely to keep on buying anyway.

[The Cheese]

Ollo,

Is there any chance you could post the rest of the last message you recieved? The one that talks about the "lowly 1st-level-support".

I would like to see that in context with the rest of the message.

[ollo]

RAM, on 12 November 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Trust, but check, double check, re-check.

Hm, i'm getting the impression you're working either in organized crime or as a project manager. Oh well, maybe it's just common sense...

[miscreant]

The problem with the refund isn't that it cannot be accomplished, the problem is greed. Plain and simple greed.

[HurlockHolmes]

Simplest solution would be to just put a box next to each option that you check to "unlock" the button.

[ollo]

HurlockHolmes, on 12 November 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Simplest solution would be to just put a box next to each option that you check to "unlock" the button.

I was thinking of something similar, but not in the sense of an 'I'll unlock this forever'-button, as you have to switch between the spend-CB and spend-MC scheme often. It would be nice to have only XP/CB buttons, that are extended by a small GXP/MC button to the right, similar to the arrow dropdowns on form entries or the F4-help in SAP. But that might collide with their intent of selling MC, as it is not as prominent as before when having a same-size button.

This could be dealt with by giving the MC/GXP buttons a pulsating glow if you don't have enough GXP/MC. Perhaps this might even be the better solution, as it would be more visually attractive, i don't know...

Edited by ollo, 12 November 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Poerisija]

Call your credit-card company and cancel the original money-transfer from there.

Oh, you can't since you're a founder and it probably happened a while ago. :/

Edited by Poerisija, 12 November 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[aspect]

Guys...it's already been deployed in the world's most successful F2P game. It works fine. It's not a difficult thing to introduce.

Quote

PVP.net Store Refund Policy:

Self-service refunds on champions and skins are available in the League of Legends Store, with each account having three (3) Refund Tokens available over the course of its lifetime. The next time you mis-click, suffer from a moment of mistaken identity, or come down with a terrible case of buyer’s remorse, you can cash in one of your credits for a no-questions-asked refund!
What can I refund?

There are a few limitations on how you can use your self-service refunds:
- You only get three refunds per account, per lifetime. Please spend your refund tokens wisely! Once you have depleted your refund tokens, we will be unable to process any additional refunds against your account.
- You can only refund Skins and Champions through the store feature.
- For Runes (Stacks of 9 Runes or Stacks of 3 Quintessences only), Rune Pages, Bundles, and name change reversal requests, you will need to submit a ticket for us to manually process the requested refund. Please note: if you do not have any tokens left we will be unable to assist you.
- Our Official Refund Policy only allows refund of purchases made in the last 90 days. You are not able to request refund of content purchased prior to that.
- If you want to refund a champion and you own skins for that champion, please note that you will have to use tokens to refund all the skins for that champion before you are able to use a token to refund the actual champion.

https://support.leag...t-refund-policy

[Gallowglas]

I did the same thing last night and got the same reply with my request for a refund. It was definitely my stupid mistake, but I do think they need to clarify the interface. It's very easy to make the mistake.