124 replies to this topic

[Rogue Phoenix]

NoRoo, on 14 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

I love autocannons, and am concerned about the way convergence is working against them in close range combat (where frankly they should be at their strongest)
Here is a basic graphic of convergence and the problem we're currently having for people that are having issues visualizing it.

If you want to experience the issue for your self, Hop into a mech with an autocannon or ERPPC in an arm (arm mounted weapons are much more at the mercy of convergence) and get into a close range fight. At 80 meters with 60kph of transversal velocity, the current weapon convergence mechanism creates a 30-40 degree dead zone that you are incappable of hitting. This is more than enough "missing" space to fit most battlemechs.

I would add here that the coulmn on the far right can be compensated for IF the background terrain is constant by leading the target just a little bit more. I'm good at that and it's fun. What dosen't work for me is when there are obstacles up close (other mechs/small hills/boxes/whatev) in an otherwise flat area. When you're circling with somone, that background terrain moves up close then far away then up close then far away. This futzes with the convergence calculation, which affect the angle my right arm has with respect to my centerline. It does it enough that it causes misses.

Not in all cases. If I'm in a tall mech shooting at a small one (so I'm aiming down), the flat ground acts as constant background, keeping my convergence within reasonalbe tolerances. (this breaks down in hilly terrain). Even better if I'm shooting at their legs. However, if I'm in a small mech shooting at a tall one, the problem is exacerbated because the range flips from the mech itself to sky, which leads to as much as a 20 degree difference (depending on how far away the target I'm circiling with is). Or hills 10000m away to the hill that's 100m away that just happened to come under my riticule as I'm circling.

[Nightfangs]

The weapon convergence system is a highly sophisticated targeting computer.
You would think that it would be possible to "dumb it down"... set it to the distance to your selected target, a constant (changeable) value, etc...

PGI, please think of this as a priority problem.
It can be solved quite easily and without much efford and will help the somewhat weak ACs to become solid, useful weapons and ****** PPCs to suck a little less!

[Zypher]

Wow, I cannot believe this thread is still running, ug I am contributing to it. The simple fact is playing other titles this wasn't an issue, at least one I never experienced. Because it still exists people are going to get turned away from the game, it certainly had stopped me using ballistics which was my favorite class of weapon, luckily I love the genre otherwise I would be gone too.

All the arguments aside, compensating for convergence is BS, people are not going to read a convergence manual to try and play this game. They will shoot and if what happens is not expected their are going to say "yea right" to this beta. Some will stay because they find this a challenge, but I am willing to bet most people don't find this issue fun.

[Zerikin]

Projectile weapons in arms are basically unusable due to the convergence issue. Been this way for months.

[PYM Scorn]

Khobai, on 14 November 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

. And another thing people need to do is look at where their weapons are going instead of where the reticle is pointed. Adjust your aim based on where your weapons hit... not based on the reticle. It takes some practice to ignore the reticle but after a while it becomes second nature.



Thats why lasers have always been the preferred weapons in mechwarrior games. Ballistic weapons have had issues in every single mechwarrior game to date. Ballistics are actually more useful in MWO than any other version of mechwarrior though.

+1

This is how I do it at the rifle range and it works pretty well in MechWarrior (aside from the occasional PPC issue when firing from arms in an AWS. But you adjust and then chain fire them to get the hits).

Lag-shield on Jenners, Commandos, and Cicadas is still ridiculous. One of the MechWarriors on this forum back in CB stated that having to lead a target with a weapon that moves at the speed of light is ridiculous. I agree. I'm certain that problem is a net code issue but it really does need to be fixed.

Edited by PYM Scorn, 14 November 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[NoRoo]

Rogue Phoenix, on 14 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I would add here that the coulmn on the far right can be compensated for IF the background terrain is constant by leading the target just a little bit more. I'm good at that and it's fun. What dosen't work for me is when there are obstacles up close (other mechs/small hills/boxes/whatev) in an otherwise flat area. When you're circling with somone, that background terrain moves up close then far away then up close then far away. This futzes with the convergence calculation, which affect the angle my right arm has with respect to my centerline. It does it enough that it causes misses.

Not in all cases. If I'm in a tall mech shooting at a small one (so I'm aiming down), the flat ground acts as constant background, keeping my convergence within reasonalbe tolerances. (this breaks down in hilly terrain). Even better if I'm shooting at their legs. However, if I'm in a small mech shooting at a tall one, the problem is exacerbated because the range flips from the mech itself to sky, which leads to as much as a 20 degree difference (depending on how far away the target I'm circiling with is). Or hills 10000m away to the hill that's 100m away that just happened to come under my riticule as I'm circling.

This is actually a key point of the problem, sometimes there is no way to compensate that will result in a hit, on the right column look at the difference between the angles of the grey line in the top and second frame. If the mech you're shooting at fits inside there, there is no where on your screen you can aim that will result in a hit, your arm weapons have a huge blind spot.

Edited by NoRoo, 14 November 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[Skyfaller]

The PPC also shows a similar problem. It is aimed at the distance/point when you aim not when it shoots hence why the idiotic behavior of the PPC round half the time flying off towards the front of the mech or to the opposite side of where your aimpoint is tracking the enemy.

[Rokuzachi]

This and hitbox/netcode issues are easily my top 2 that I'd like to see fixed...

...because I use ballistics in fast brawlers and like to hunt fast moving targets. Doh!

[NoRoo]

Skyfaller, on 14 November 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

The PPC also shows a similar problem. It is aimed at the distance/point when you aim not when it shoots hence why the idiotic behavior of the PPC round half the time flying off towards the front of the mech or to the opposite side of where your aimpoint is tracking the enemy.

Yep, this is the same issue. All weapons with balistic trajectories are affected (because they need to lead their targets). The further to the left or right of you the weapon is coming from, the more aggravated the issue becomes. PPC's in an arm have larger blind spots than PPC's in the side torso.

[BlackSquirrel]

Agreed more noticeable in shorter fights, but really annoying having shots not go where your cross hairs are... Meanwhile SSRMs can be shot at mechs perpendicular to you almost behind you in some cases. Which means they're making a U turn after immediately being fired.

[Asmosis]

convergence on target is a horrible idea. You know there are times when your not shooting at the thing you have locked right?

Convergence issues for very close targets is a balancing factor on heavy weapons anyway. Its one of the few balancing things with gauss rifles, that you unlikely to unload both rounds into the same location unless your aiming at the legs.

Also do we still need to lead with lasers? or did they change that so what your hitting on screen is what your actually hitting?

[Solis Obscuri]

This is a hugely valid issue, and one that has concerned me since the convergence mechanic was announced. Doesn't affect guided missiles or hit-scan beam weapons (guess it doesn't really affect SRMs either, since they spread so ridiculously), but it is a problem for ballistics. Not sure what the "best" fix is, though - short of having weapons automatically compute lead for you.

[BlackSquirrel]

Asmosis, on 14 November 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

convergence on target is a horrible idea. You know there are times when your not shooting at the thing you have locked right?

Convergence issues for very close targets is a balancing factor on heavy weapons anyway. Its one of the few balancing things with gauss rifles, that you unlikely to unload both rounds into the same location unless your aiming at the legs.

Also do we still need to lead with lasers? or did they change that so what your hitting on screen is what your actually hitting?

Wondering this myself... I get a red hit indicator, but some have said this isn't enough. I have questioned it when I know for certain with lasers, and arm or side should have blown out.

[Blackfire1]

I mentioned this in beta back in June.


Yea... goo luck with that.

I personally think torso weapons should NOT converge at all but keep their "pattern" and position in relation to the cross hairs.

That way they can add the "targetting" computer and makes things how they are now.

[Noodlesoup]

Convergence should go to the reticle, why? Sometimes in battle I'm not shooting at my locked target. And I know there are a lot of people who also shoot at targets besides the locked target. Why? Because if I'm chasing a light, it will auto retarget and alert me when it is visible again. But in the meantime I can potshot other mechs. Locking convergence to your selected target is not a good idea.

[Virisken]

a couple of matches before my ppce (in the arms) missed a locked target at 110m cause the beams crossed in front of him...we were both standing and shooting each other..that was quite rediculous

[hanitora]

Asmosis, on 14 November 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Convergence issues for very close targets is a balancing factor on heavy weapons anyway. Its one of the few balancing things with gauss rifles, that you unlikely to unload both rounds into the same location unless your aiming at the legs.

It kind of isn't because it only cripples arm mounted weapons. I present to you the gausscat, that mounts **** in its torso. Problem minimized, mechs with ballistic arms can go suck it.

[Rogue Phoenix]

Asmosis, on 14 November 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

convergence on target is a horrible idea. You know there are times when your not shooting at the thing you have locked right?

that's why we require a pilot-selectable choice. Different solutions for different problems.

Quote

Convergence issues for very close targets is a balancing factor on heavy weapons anyway. Its one of the few balancing things with gauss rifles, that you unlikely to unload both rounds into the same location unless your aiming at the legs.

it's not a balancing issue, it's basic functionality that is a consequence of mounting weapons that are displaced from the centerline, particularly arms on wide mechs. Example: Centurion.

[JustPyro]

Khobai, on 13 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

no its not. its not an assist system at all. its how the game figures out where shots are going to intersect. convergence has to be in the game whether you like it or not; otherwise it would be completely impossible to aim because weapons wouldnt converge on your reticle at all.

the problem people are having isnt that convergence is in the game, its that when you lead a moving target, the shots converge at a farther distance than the target so weapons fired from seperate locations on your mech often miss.

the easiest way to fix it is just with a module, because modules are optional to use, and you dont punish anyone whos already good at aiming with the current convergence system. The module could just use the selected target's distance from you as the distance for convergence, and it could even give you a lead indicator showing you where to shoot.



In the example picture a mech is firing weapons from both its left and right arms and leading the target, but because the convergence point is in the distance, only the weapons in one arm can hit the target. One workaround is to have your left and right weapons on different weapon groups if youre doing any kind of leading of your targets. Gaussapults do this frequently.

It is an assist system, because it adjusts the point of convergence automatically. Modern weapon systems generally have either a single, set convergence point (WW2 fighter planes were around 300 yards out). Convergence does have to be in the game, but it doesn't have to be automatically set. A simple system would be a couple choices:
A: Set convergence to auto (what we have)
B: Set convergence to current target distance
C: Set convergence to what reticle is currently at.
D: Manually set distance to X (like a knob)

C is my favorite. It allows you to shoot multiple targets. I do this a lot as a light - leaving 1 targeted for the team, the other for my weapons. You can simply have middle mouse or whatever, set the convergence. Launch your missiles middle click, then left click. Very rapid way to set the convergence, and then you can set it to what you're currently shooting at, and begin leading as you would need, but allow you to have different things targeted.

D would work well in an ACTUAL cockpit, where it would be a simple knob or dial. But I think it wouldn't translate to most keyboards/mice/single joysticks well. It would allow you just leave it at your preferred combat range, and leave it if you want. It's like putting your rifle sights above the target because your rifle is zeroed at 100 yards, and you're making a 300 yard shot.

But you can just have a key set to cycle through the convergence modes. This would satisfy most everyone, because there's always someone that doesn't like parts of the game.

[Kmieciu]

If I had the simple option to turn convergence off, i would use it!
It would be easier to learn the point of impact of various weapons on my Centurion, than trying to "trick" the auto convergence by snap-firing.

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 November 2012 - 11:45 PM.