22 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

Very few 'mechs take Ferro Fibrous armor currently as an upgrade, and it's easy to see why.

In practically all cases, Double Heatsinks and Endo Steel provide more of a benefit (the exception being the Gausscat, which doesn't need DHS). Endo Steel gives you exactly the same negative (loss of the same amount of crit space), but gives you more tonnage back in return. By the time you have those upgrades, there usually isn't room for FF, so it's hardly used.

Furthermore, the actual costs associated with FF are generally worse than endo steel - you'll be paying that double armor repair bill every game with FF, whereas with endo-steel the repair costs are only incurred if the enemy gets through your armor in a match.

All this adds up to make FF a rather unattractive option, only ever used when people already have the other upgrades and still have the crit space.

But what if we made FF do something unique? What if it not only lightened your armor by 12%, but also increased the max armor you could mount on the 'mech by 12%?

I realize that's not canon to TT rules, but that would give FF some serious consideration among builds where toughness is prioritized. 12% more armor isn't going to create invincible builds by any means and there are still some serious costs to consider when using it, but by making it do something that no other upgrade does, you make it unique and thus worthy of consideration. Right now it's just a bad version of endo-steel - and mainly the people who have taken it are the people who mistakenly believed that it actually gave them an armor increase (due to the somewhat misleading description on the upgrade).

[Darwins Dog]

I would also like to see something different for it. This is not a bad suggestion. Even in my commando (which uses 3 crit slots for weapons) there is not enough room for FF. I took ES, and an XL engine, and there's simply not enough room.

People keep saying it helps lights, but 14 crits to save 0.5 tons isn't much help, and will still squeeze out weapons, or heat sinks.

[Widghet]

in my jenner I run both FF and ES and have DHS with an xl, and 6 slots to weapons. Anyway, here is the thing, yes it isn't cannon, but more importantly lets really do some math. Sure your suggestion gives more armor to the mech, but I took FF to get more weight back for my mech, even if it is only .9 tons. If you increase the max armor, then your paying 14 crit slots for 12% more armor, no wieght gained as it would be put into the more armor. It was designed as lighter armor to free up weight for more ammo, hs, weapons, ect. Take that away and you paying for more armor, IMHO not worth it. I like it the way it is. Even freed up some space on my cicada, that is also running ES and DHS. All in the build and how you use it.

[DivineEvil]

Widghet, on 13 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

in my jenner I run both FF and ES and have DHS with an xl, and 6 slots to weapons. Anyway, here is the thing, yes it isn't cannon, but more importantly lets really do some math. Sure your suggestion gives more armor to the mech, but I took FF to get more weight back for my mech, even if it is only .9 tons. If you increase the max armor, then your paying 14 crit slots for 12% more armor, no wieght gained as it would be put into the more armor. It was designed as lighter armor to free up weight for more ammo, hs, weapons, ect. Take that away and you paying for more armor, IMHO not worth it. I like it the way it is. Even freed up some space on my cicada, that is also running ES and DHS. All in the build and how you use it.

If you're getting 12% more armor units, then you just need to reduce your resulting armor to free that weight to recieve the same protection, which will bear the same effect in your case. Easy as that. Currently you're not getting more protection, you're just getting lighter armor.

If FF description says that it gives 12% more protection for the ton, that's mean it. Mechs are, by canon, packs the determined armor weight maximum by tons, and not limited by protection units amount as it is now in game. In MWO, you're practically loosing armor weight capacity for lighter armor - your mech getting 12% less tons of armor. Thus, in order to make FF as a viable alternative for Endo-Steel, FF must increase protection point capacity, 1 point for each 8 points already in place, from 80pp to 90pp capacity in example, together with the current effect.

Edited by DivineEvil, 13 November 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[General Taskeen]

What OP means is 12% extra damage reduction per ton of armor.

Technically some Mech's already have an extra 10% damage reduction, if they have missile doors.

[Comassion]

Widghet, on 13 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

in my jenner I run both FF and ES and have DHS with an xl, and 6 slots to weapons. Anyway, here is the thing, yes it isn't cannon, but more importantly lets really do some math. Sure your suggestion gives more armor to the mech, but I took FF to get more weight back for my mech, even if it is only .9 tons. If you increase the max armor, then your paying 14 crit slots for 12% more armor, no wieght gained as it would be put into the more armor. It was designed as lighter armor to free up weight for more ammo, hs, weapons, ect. Take that away and you paying for more armor, IMHO not worth it. I like it the way it is. Even freed up some space on my cicada, that is also running ES and DHS. All in the build and how you use it.

Under my suggestion, you can still use FF this way by not increasing your armor beyond what you already have. You still control how much armor goes on the 'mech - it simply gives you the option of using that weight savings to pack on a bit more armor instead of other items, but it's still just an option.

Increasing available armor would be an additional possible benefit to FF that would make people consider it more. It can still be used to simply lighten the tonnage required for your current loadout, as it is now (but ES always does that better).

General Taskeen, on 13 November 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

What OP means is 12% extra damage reduction per ton of armor.

Technically some Mech's already have an extra 10% damage reduction, if they have missile doors.

To clarify, my proposal is to simply increase the max armor allowed on each location on a FF 'mech by 12% rather than any form of damage reduction. The difference is that you still have to pay the extra weight if you choose to do so rather than making the armor work better.

Edited by Comassion, 13 November 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Dagger906]

They should implement ME4 armoring system. FF standard, no extra space requirement, along with Reactive and Reflective armor types, both weights twice as much as FF, but provides twice as much armoring for either projectile/missile or energy weapons. Base armor points of mechs stay canon, not doubled.

[Roughneck45]

It would be nice if it actually made the mech tougher.

I dont really care what they do, as long as they do something. Ferro is just about useless right now.

[WardenWolf]

General Taskeen, on 13 November 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Technically some Mech's already have an extra 10% damage reduction, if they have missile doors.

Woah, not to derail the thread here but did they really give mechs with missile bay doors extra defenses like that? I'd always wondered why the Devs even cared about having those doors, as they seem a nuisance to players, but that at least makes some sense. When was this mentioned, though? I've been on these forums over a year and never remember seeing anything about that :/

[Volthorne]

WardenWolf, on 13 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Woah, not to derail the thread here but did they really give mechs with missile bay doors extra defenses like that? I'd always wondered why the Devs even cared about having those doors, as they seem a nuisance to players, but that at least makes some sense. When was this mentioned, though? I've been on these forums over a year and never remember seeing anything about that :/

It happened recently.

Concerning original topic: Let's make Light 'Mechs MORE OP! Because they're not already bad enough!

[Roughneck45]

Volthorne, on 13 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

It happened recently.

Concerning original topic: Let's make Light 'Mechs MORE OP! Because they're not already bad enough!

Thats only because collisions were removed. That is the biggest buff they could possibly get.

Once they are implemented again, things will fall right back into place.

[ltwally]

Roughneck45, on 13 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

It would be nice if it actually made the mech tougher.

I dont really care what they do, as long as they do something. Ferro is just about useless right now.

So far they've kept to TT rules on FF armour... and, yes, the Inner Sphere version of FF is just about useless. It certainly isn't a good buy for the C-Bills. It's one of those things that if you have the extra space for it and if you have the spare C-Bills... meh, might as well.

[Monky]

I agree FF is pretty useless. Endo steel saves more weight, allowing you to up-armor to max anyways.

I would like to see it allow more armor total (nothing extreme) since the weight savings aren't there and would interfere with build rules. Armor in itself is fairly simple to adjust.

Maybe 12% more is a good figure, but I'd like to see it adjust your armor total maximum up to the next tonnage bracket (say, a 20 tonner would be able to carry the same armor as a 25 tonner for the weight of a 20 tonner's max armor).

[Prophet of Entropy]

i want heavy/reactive/glazed and patchwork armor.


that is all.

[General Taskeen]

Prohet of Entropy, on 13 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

i want heavy/reactive/glazed and patchwork armor.


that is all.

+ hardened armor + primitive armor

[Asmudius Heng]

Yes - FF needs to be more complex in what it actually does not just the mechanics of saving weight.

If people want to create a TANK type mech to soak fire they should have that option not just weight saving.

Defensive technology is woefully underrepresented in MWO

Also, screw lore not TT etc etc let make the game better but keep the spirit of BT

[Volthorne]

Asmudius Heng, on 13 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Also, screw lore not TT etc etc let make the game better but keep the spirit of BT

Uh.... the current implementation of FF is how it works in TT... I think you may want to say that the other way around.

[Asmudius Heng]

Volthorne, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Uh.... the current implementation of FF is how it works in TT... I think you may want to say that the other way around.

Yes i know, thats why i said screw the TT - make it different and better for MWO ... the spirit of BT says this is lighter armour but just as tough right? So with that extra light material we can fit more on, not just free up space for other stuff.

The "bulk" issue is the crit slots so it comes with its drawback - it just means if you could go over the max armour limit on your chassis you could spend that weight on armour not other equipment.

Unless i read the OP wrong.

[Volthorne]

Asmudius Heng, on 13 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yes i know, thats why i said screw the TT - make it different and better for MWO ... the spirit of BT says this is lighter armour but just as tough right? So with that extra light material we can fit more on, not just free up space for other stuff.

The "bulk" issue is the crit slots so it comes with its drawback - it just means if you could go over the max armour limit on your chassis you could spend that weight on armour not other equipment.

Unless i read the OP wrong.

You said "screw lore" and I was pointing out your typo. Regardless, FF is lighter, but also bulkier. The reason you can't equip more FF armor points than standard armor points is because you'd start impeding actuator movement, and throwing gyros out of whack, etc.

[Asmudius Heng]

Volthorne, on 13 November 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

You said "screw lore" and I was pointing out your typo. Regardless, FF is lighter, but also bulkier. The reason you can't equip more FF armor points than standard armor points is because you'd start impeding actuator movement, and throwing gyros out of whack, etc.

Gotcha, i equated lore to TT rules mechanics which is not really fair.

Well the bulk thing is already taken care of by the crit space stuff - where we could deviate to make hem more useful is to allow extra armour - this would be a break from the TT and perhaps the lore but i still feel it is within the spirit of the game and would add another dimension to mech builds and meaningful choices.