60 replies to this topic

[Souske Sagara]

I'll be saddened by jump skating ala MW2. That's not how they were designed to work, which is why they don't operate that way in 3 or 4.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Dihm, on 03 November 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

I don't know why you seem to think this is going to be such a hardcore sim.

Is rudimentarily modeling some aspects of gravity "hardcore"?

It's common sense that if you're falling and don't slow down before impact bad things happen, no?

Only simpletons would find that hardcore.

Edit: Not to mention the inclusion of falling damage in every major non-simulation FPS ever made sans maybe Tribes. If Counter-Strike can be bothered to include it for the sake of realism than MWO certainly can.

Edited by Cavadus, 03 November 2011 - 08:00 PM.

[Eegxeta]

Jump jets should be restricted to scout mechs and mechs that have had a history with them. No assault mechs should have them the physics just won't work they weight way to much. Jump Jets should also have flight time that corresponds to the weight of the mech a 20 ton mech should have more flight time than a 50 ton mech and if the MW4 jump jet fuel system is used if you run out of fuel in air you should come crashing down instead of gently drifting down like you do in MW4.

[Rain Man the Excellently]

Gotta have the jump jets. Since I'm a fan of stock mechs, I'd only use them on mechs that have JJs stock.

[Phades]

TheRulesLawyer, on 03 November 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

I think the better question is should that lame using JJ to skate along the ground be allow like it was in previous mw?

Definitely not, unless it is a LAM in hybrid. Let them be on the bounce, but not be overly restrictive on re-use of them in order to let their mobility increase really mean something. Earlier renditions of the game, the best you could hope for is get out of the way of an inbound ppc, or if you were really fast, a gauss round. There really isn't such a thing as dodging a laser or homing missiles, only pilot error and firing arcs.

Cavadus, on 03 November 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

Is rudimentarily modeling some aspects of gravity "hardcore"?

It's common sense that if you're falling and don't slow down before impact bad things happen, no?

Only simpletons would find that hardcore.

Edit: Not to mention the inclusion of falling damage in every major non-simulation FPS ever made sans maybe Tribes. If Counter-Strike can be bothered to include it for the sake of realism than MWO certainly can.

Not sure what you are on about with tribes not having falling damage. It most certainly did have falling damage and even speed based collision damage. The thing it rated primarily was vector changes and how abrupt they were, hence allowing for the gradual vector changes found when skiing.

I also agree that falling damage is essential and arguably required if certain elements are to be retained within the game such as death from above. That is not to imply that the jets shouldn't recharge quickly and be able to be employed as a method to "soft fall" and lessen the impact of the falling damage either.

Edited by Phades, 03 November 2011 - 09:07 PM.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Phades, on 03 November 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

That is not to imply that the jets shouldn't recharge quickly and be able to be employed as a method to "soft fall" and lessen the impact of the falling damage either.

Well, in my perfect MWO jump jets would not recharge mid-air and I would force players to conserve a portion of their jump jet fuel for the landing or suffer some pretty catastrophic structural damage for crashing into the ground. I'm talking some serious actuator and myomer damage which would cause permanent limps, speed losses, and then on top of that some hefty structural damage to the legs and pelvis.

Edited by Cavadus, 03 November 2011 - 10:10 PM.

[Phades]

Cavadus, on 03 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

Well, in my perfect MWO jump jets would not recharge mid-air and I would force players to conserve a portion of their jump jet fuel for the landing or suffer some pretty catastrophic structural damage for crashing into the ground. I'm talking some serious actuator and myomer damage which would cause permanent limps, speed losses, and then on top of that some hefty structural damage to the legs and pelvis.

I can respect that position, however I think the way we view movement and mobility is probably fundamentally different.

If the jump jets let the player easily clear mountains and most tall buildings without completely exhausting them (assuming lighter mech with lots of jets), then i'm right there with you as you will have the reserves required to soften the fall or make mid air adjustments to forward or lateral motion to land correctly. This method has, to date, never been implemented correctly. Quite commonly involved scenarios where running traveled greater distances in shorter periods of time than jumping. While in other instances, allowed for skating across the surface of the ground making an unbelievable effect and outpacing running mechs carte blanch while not addressing balance issues or change of direction issues at all.

If the jets are not massive reserves of thrust that allow for such large movement options and mid air corrections, then they should recharge at a good pace allowing for bursts. I mean hell, even in the table top versions you could jump every turn, but it was hot though... Shorter max flight arcs and faster jet recharges seem to make more sense in general, but that is just me apparently.

[IS Wolf]

Mater, on 03 November 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

I have a question, how many jump jets would an Atlas need if it could jump …. and how far ten feet.

Dependent upon the engine. So if you have a say Vlar 300 installed, which puts you at a 3/5 movement speed, then you can only mount 3 jumpjets, for a max leap of 90 feet. Weight required to mount them would be 6T.

Eegxeta, on 03 November 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

No assault mechs should have them the physics just won't work they weight way to much.

Black Watch, Blood Kite, Executioner, Canis, Crockett, Emperor, Gunslinger, Highlander, Highlander IIC, Katana, Kodiak (2), Legacy, Mad Cat Mk II, Marauder II, Phoenix Hawk IIC, Pillager, Sagittaire, Scylla, Shogun, Stone Rhino, Supernova, Turkina, Victor, and the Yu Huang send their regards.

Edited by IS-Wolf, 03 November 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[John Clavell]

I think the video from 2009 answers the question. Yes there will be jump jets. Look in the video at the sense of weight from the Jenner using it's jump jets. I'm prety sure you won't be jumping miles into the air.

[ice trey]

Yes, we should have jump jets
Yes, we should have directional jump jets, so that jumpers actually get that tactical advantage that JJ are supposed to give.
No, Jump Jets should not allow you to skate along the ground at 400 kilometers per hour for extended periods of time.
No, Jump jets should not allow you to jump snipe by any means. Using jump jets (As well as the respective fall) should make your mech shake from turbulence like a five year old who found his older brother's Red Bull - nullifying chances that game-breaking jumpsnipers can sully this game, too.

[godmonkey]

if the game focuses on urban combat as promised the lack of jump jets would just be...dumb like a moose... JJ are a very important thing in urban combat and i can't see them not adding them to the game

[Dihm]

Cavadus, on 03 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

Well, in my perfect MWO jump jets would not recharge mid-air and I would force players to conserve a portion of their jump jet fuel for the landing or suffer some pretty catastrophic structural damage for crashing into the ground. I'm talking some serious actuator and myomer damage which would cause permanent limps, speed losses, and then on top of that some hefty structural damage to the legs and pelvis.

Easy to hand-wave it that you automatically do this and it isn't required by the player (either the mech handles it or the "pilot" does it without the player having to). You aren't going to see this. You seem to think this game should be real life based on your comments here and other threads. I hate to tell you, but that isn't going to happen. It is a game.

Edited by Dihm, 04 November 2011 - 05:06 AM.

[Sideways]

Yes we need them, no they should not be restricted, Admittedly most of what I bring is from Clan tech, but even there almost all Omni's have at least 1 jumpy variation, I realize this is a mute point now, but 2 years down the road... Would kinda suck to if you were a fan of a certain mech because of its jumpy version and you couldn't get it.

[Sideways]

ice trey, on 04 November 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

Yes, we should have jump jets
Yes, we should have directional jump jets, so that jumpers actually get that tactical advantage that JJ are supposed to give.
No, Jump Jets should not allow you to skate along the ground at 400 kilometers per hour for extended periods of time.
No, Jump jets should not allow you to jump snipe by any means. Using jump jets (As well as the respective fall) should make your mech shake from turbulence like a five year old who found his older brother's Red Bull - nullifying chances that game-breaking jumpsnipers can sully this game, too.

Jumping and shooting is cannon, since the jumps have never been fast it also opens you up to potentially be sniped. Thus why its fair.

[Sideways]

John Clavell, on 03 November 2011 - 11:56 PM, said:

I think the video from 2009 answers the question. Yes there will be jump jets. Look in the video at the sense of weight from the Jenner using it's jump jets. I'm prety sure you won't be jumping miles into the air.

You won't, by CBT rules unless you decide on more or less, you typically jump your cruising speed distance, this is usually about 80% or so of your max speed.

[Sideways]

Phades, on 03 November 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

Definitely not, unless it is a LAM in hybrid. Let them be on the bounce, but not be overly restrictive on re-use of them in order to let their mobility increase really mean something. Earlier renditions of the game, the best you could hope for is get out of the way of an inbound ppc, or if you were really fast, a gauss round. There really isn't such a thing as dodging a laser or homing missiles, only pilot error and firing arcs.

Not sure what you are on about with tribes not having falling damage. It most certainly did have falling damage and even speed based collision damage. The thing it rated primarily was vector changes and how abrupt they were, hence allowing for the gradual vector changes found when skiing.

I also agree that falling damage is essential and arguably required if certain elements are to be retained within the game such as death from above. That is not to imply that the jets shouldn't recharge quickly and be able to be employed as a method to "soft fall" and lessen the impact of the falling damage either.

If you death from above or are unlucky enough to have a building shot our from under you, or stupid enough to walk off of one, yes you should take falling damage, as it is unnatural, same as if you take damage mid flight you should run the risk of landing wrong, but a straight spring forward/backward etc with no inflight damage, should not be something you have to think about. This is not a first person shooter, you are piloting a highly sophisicated walking tank with its own independent "muscle" structer, I don't give a **** if i get hurt in a fps because i am playing a PERSON, not a MECH.

[Frantic Pryde]

What? Lol...is this even a question? That's like asking should we have lasers! Of course!

Mw2 jjs where a bit...uhm... Over the top. Fun, but very not btech. Mw3 jjs were just ok. Mw4 jjs SUCKED... And badly... Only use for it was hill poping.

Mpbt:3025 nailed it! Jumping made hard to be hit and hard to hit and it felt right. Like someone else said, like you got a rocket suddenly stuffed in your posterior. 3025 made jumping a thrill.

[Owl Cutter]

mbt201188, on 03 November 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

I think that only the mechs that are designed for jump jets should have them. Mostly because if they aren't, aerodynamics would cause you to crash head first like Wilie Coyote

They don't have to leap into the air as fast as a rocket taking off, so weight distribution should be more important than aerodynamics. Battlemechs have massive gyros which are fluffed as a very large part of staying upright, so that should help since they do not require feet planted on the ground to do that. Thrust vectoring seems to be assumed, as well. Besides, any argument from realism applied to Battletech is outweighed by the slightest gameplay concern, and jump jets are considered essential by many.

I would rather like each chassis to have graphics for both torso and leg thrust so the in-game visuals reflect the stats; I don't want to be gnawing a leg off because it looks like that's where half of the jump jets are, when they are actually in the torso. As long as the visual effect does not depict the thrust coming from somewhere too stupid, it should be fine. The gyro is only a few tons, after all, and thrust vectoring can't compensate for horribly lopsided placement either.

I am also for implementing fall damage for failing to cushion your descent. It's not modeled in Battletech, but fall damage from other falls is. This departure from canon makes sense to me. It also already has precedent in MW2, and I don't remember any complaining about it being there.

[AlphaPrime]

gilliam, on 03 November 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

Care to explain your position?

As far as I can tell, if you can't actually maneuver with the jump jets and your only choice is up, then all you get is poptarting. If you can actually jump laterally, then you can use them to hop over obstacles. That IS the point of jump jets, after all.

I think he means you can only JJ in the direction your torso is facing, but if you are already moving forward, then obviously your forward momentum will carry you up and forward somewhat. You can twist in the air to try and navigate, but I would hope they implement some decent physics for JJs so it will account for amount of thrust, weight and current speed to make it so you can't bob and weave around in the air much. A really small mech with powerful JJs could perhaps do it to some degree for the duration of burst, but the heavier mechs with JJs should almost be entirely veritcal with some forward momentum accounted for IMO.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Dihm, on 04 November 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

You seem to think this game should be real life based on your comments here and other threads. I hate to tell you, but that isn't going to happen. It is a game.

Based =/= Inspired

And since when is falling damage only a staple in hardcore simulations? Last I checked every arcade FPS on the planet includes it to one degree or another.