40 replies to this topic

[TheMightyWashburn]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

thank you

[Strum Wealh]

From an old thread...

Strum Wealh, on 03 April 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

To add some needed(?) clarification:

The Fusion Engine is not an engine in the same way as that which propels an automobile or conventional armored vehicle.
It is a magnetohydrodynamic electrical generator similar to a device known as a tokamak, where the plasma used to generate electricity is provided by a compact, portable fusion reactor.

As such, it does not actually have a torque rating, it cannot really be geared up or down in the same way as an ICE, nor does it necessarily have the same relationships between speed and acceleration as the engines found in automobiles and conventional armored vehicles.

That being said, a "bigger" (higher rating) engine should produce more electrical power, and as the BattleMechs' myomers are apparently voltage-driven and more power generally translates into higher voltages (if current is considered constant), then the myomers are able to exert more force (which would account for the speed increase).

'Mechs also (canonically) had access to Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry ("MASC"; a system that increases the rate at which the myomers work, increasing speed at the risk of burning-out/locking-up the actuators), Triple-Strength Myomer ("TSM"; a bulky and expensive myomer variant that offers improved performance when the 'Mech is running hot), and Superchargers (devices that alter the safety limiters on the Fusion Engine to allow for increased power output at the risk of catastrophic damage to said Fusion Engine).
Canonically, MASC and TSM are incompatible with one another and could not be mounted on the same 'Mech, but either could be used together with a Supercharger.
It remains to be seen if and/or how the Devs will implement any or all of the above.

[Krivvan]

von Bremerhaven, on 13 November 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

We have lasers. We have Gauss rifles (rail guns).

As I understand, a Gauss rifle is not a rail gun. Rather, it is a coil gun. Both use magnetic forces to launch a projectile, but they work very differently.

[Icepick]

Yes, we all know its a sci-fi game, but trying to make sense of it is still fun.

I remember a quote somewhere from some physicist or other, comparing a fusion plasma to "trying to keep a candle burning in a hurricane"

I think you could get a pretty significant explosion if the plasma (however briefly) contacted something that could vaporize or burn at high temp. Aluminum or rubber for instance would probably make a pretty good bang.

[Pandathaway]

what everyone that has EVER had a go around at this fails to take note of if fusion reactors operate at high pressure and STUPID high temperature so...high pressure stick a pin in a balloon and it goes pop....stick an AC 20 in a reactor....guess what BIG pop all that pressure is going some place and fast....and lets not forget how hot that stuff is... several tens of millions of degrees....all that heat and pressure doesn't come to a screaming stop just cuse you put an AC round into it....so no will it go not nuclear but there still would be a large explosion big enough that if a mech was standing face to face with a target and popped its reactor your face would get melted but ya the guy standing 100 feet away would get a nice sun burn but probably be fine

[44th GrayGhost]

It isn't, and isn't in danger of being such, either.

TheMightyWashburn, on 13 November 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

TL;DR? Its a written forum, learn to read more.

MW:O claims to be hard scifi

Edited by 44th GrayGhost, 13 November 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Tarman]

Pandathaway, on 13 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

what everyone that has EVER had a go around at this fails to take note of if fusion reactors operate at high pressure and STUPID high temperature so...high pressure stick a pin in a balloon and it goes pop....stick an AC 20 in a reactor....guess what BIG pop all that pressure is going some place and fast....and lets not forget how hot that stuff is... several tens of millions of degrees....all that heat and pressure doesn't come to a screaming stop just cuse you put an AC round into it....so no will it go not nuclear but there still would be a large explosion big enough that if a mech was standing face to face with a target and popped its reactor your face would get melted but ya the guy standing 100 feet away would get a nice sun burn but probably be fine

Yeah, but Stackpoling the engines (the explosion, not so much the fake science basis for it) is boring if it happens all the time, not to mention it's hard on the old repair bills. Maybe the occasional critical from some uber-damaging wipeout, but every single time it's just not interesting. I'd much rather see more ammo cookoffs (combined with the ammodumping ability so it's more the pilot's choice/fault). Some boat packing 3000 rounds of LRM would look like a fire in a fireworks factory.

Edited by Tarman, 13 November 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

TheMightyWashburn, on 13 November 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

thank you

What for?

This

Quote

[color=#959595]I think you're doing it wrong.[/color]

[color=#959595][/color]

was totally


That is why I liked Vassago Rains post

[Pandathaway]

Tarman, on 13 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Yeah, but Stackpoling the engines (the explosion, not so much the fake science basis for it) is boring if it happens all the time, not to mention it's hard on the old repair bills. Maybe the occasional critical from some uber-damaging wipeout, but every single time it's just not interesting. I'd much rather see more ammo cookoffs (combined with the ammodumping ability so it's more the pilot's choice/fault). Some boat packing 3000 rounds of LRM would look like a fire in a fireworks factory.

oh i fully agree on both points....i hated killing a mech in MW3 only to get killed by the reactor blast and yes doing something with the ammo cooking off would be cool and far more likely then a reactor going anyway....there are pics of the size of a reactor in the chest of a mech....they are rather small your more likely to hit an ammo bin then the reactor in a mech

Edited by Pandathaway, 13 November 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Pandathaway, on 13 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

what everyone that has EVER had a go around at this fails to take note of if fusion reactors operate at high pressure and STUPID high temperature so...high pressure stick a pin in a balloon and it goes pop....stick an AC 20 in a reactor....guess what BIG pop all that pressure is going some place and fast....and lets not forget how hot that stuff is... several tens of millions of degrees....all that heat and pressure doesn't come to a screaming stop just cuse you put an AC round into it....so no will it go not nuclear but there still would be a large explosion big enough that if a mech was standing face to face with a target and popped its reactor your face would get melted but ya the guy standing 100 feet away would get a nice sun burn but probably be fine

But a few *grams* of fusing hydrogen isotopes just don't have that much energy stored in them.

[Pocket Psycho]

There's a very well written essay of all Battlemech systems on Sarna.net with the fusion engine bit being right HERE, the whole essay is worth a read if you're into knowing how stuff works.

[BigJim]

Nice post, but you got a like just for this bit.

TheMightyWashburn, on 13 November 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

TL;DR? Its a written forum, learn to read more.

[pursang]

TheMightyWashburn, on 13 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I think you're doing it ignorant. And your picture makes little sense. Part of the whole point of getting DEEP into hard science fiction is using real science + your imagination to create interesting stories. Leave your simplicity at the door.

Whoever said that MW:O was supposed to be "hard science fiction"? Perhaps you have a source?

[Strum Wealh]

Pandathaway, on 13 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

what everyone that has EVER had a go around at this fails to take note of if fusion reactors operate at high pressure and STUPID high temperature so...high pressure stick a pin in a balloon and it goes pop....stick an AC 20 in a reactor....guess what BIG pop all that pressure is going some place and fast....and lets not forget how hot that stuff is... several tens of millions of degrees....all that heat and pressure doesn't come to a screaming stop just cuse you put an AC round into it....so no will it go not nuclear but there still would be a large explosion big enough that if a mech was standing face to face with a target and popped its reactor your face would get melted but ya the guy standing 100 feet away would get a nice sun burn but probably be fine

Actually... the thing about tokamaks is that they do "just come to a stop".

Quote

How safe is fusion?
In a tokamak fusion device, the quantity of fuel present in the vessel at any one time is sufficient for a few-seconds burn only. It is difficult to reach and maintain the precise conditions necessary for fusion; any disruption in these conditions and the plasma cools within seconds and the reaction stops, much in the same way that a gas burner is extinguished when the fuel tap is turned off. The fusion process is inherently safe; there is no danger of run-away reaction or explosion.

(source)
So, actually... the point is that if one simply puts a hole in the reactor vessel or the tori, the relatively delicate and sensitive equipment is unable to initiate or sustain plasma generation and the whole thing snuffs out, like blowing out a candle or suddenly cutting off the gas supply to a gas-burning stove; standing next to a BattleMech in another BattleMech and putting a hole through an opponent's Fusion Engine would/should actually be rather unspectacular.

That being said, BattleMechs are also generally carrying several tons of (highly-flammable) condensed hydrogen (to fuel that reactor) as well as several tons of (generally-explosive) ammunition...
(Yes, Kai did manage to get his Hatchetman to blow up while facing off against the Falcon Guard on Twycross - however, that took a series of very specific and abnormal steps on his part, and the main portion of the resulting explosions would have been fueled by both the reactor's own fuel reserves and any remaining AC/10 ammunition.)

[Tarman]

Pandathaway, on 13 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

oh i fully agree on both points....i hated killing a mech in MW3 only to get killed by the reactor blast and yes doing something with the ammo cooking off would be cool and far more likely then a reactor going anyway....there are pics of the size of a reactor in the chest of a mech....they are rather small your more likely to hit an ammo bin then the reactor in a mech

Man, my first few games here, I was backing off from mech deaths; holdover from previous titles. OMG ITS GONNA - HEY WAIT :|

[Codejack]

Well, if I can address the original point:

I have a certain level of expertise in physics; nuclear physics is not my specialty, but I have an active interest in the subject.

First of all, the OP was an excellent summation of the fundamentals of fission and fusion technology. The reality is more complex, but if we are not going to choose an arbitrary level of approximation in our speech, then we'll be here for a month explaining everything.

Second, the Battletech universe was written under a certain set of assumptions, some of which have turned out to be incorrect. That's OK! That happens in science fiction (Larry Niven's The Coldest Place is a neat example), and we can retcon it.

Now I can come up with plausible explanations for whichever point of view you care to espouse; Tokamak reactors are unlikely to explode, but the raw fuel for them is generally assumed to be some combination of Deuterium and Tritium (both isotopes of Hydrogen, so highly explosive), which still has to be fed into the reactor at a measured rate, and as such is vulnerable to damage.

There are other kinds of fusion reactors, though; kinetic fusion uses premade fuel pellets that would be easier to separate, if nothing else, while the still highly theoretical aneutronic fusion would use Boron as its primary fuel source.

As always, though, it works the way the author says it does

[Betaeffect]

This game is a lot like Star Trek...don't think too hard about the physics...just hang on and enjoy the ride...

[Betaeffect]

Well if I can't have a nuclear powered mech, I'll settle for a car...

http://reviews.cnet....-in-our-future/

[BlackAce]

Most of the Catalyst Era BattleTech hard sci-fi is fact-checked by Mike Miller and Geoff Swift. Both are materials scientists, so while there's plenty of handwavium they try and keep it pretty firmly grounded.


In fact, if you get a copy of Tech Manual, you get 20 page essay on most of this stuff. Page 35 discusses how BattleTech fusion reactors work in moderate detail.

Edited by BlackAce, 13 November 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Strum Wealh, on 13 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

That being said, BattleMechs are also generally carrying several tons of (highly-flammable) condensed hydrogen (to fuel that reactor) as well as several tons of (generally-explosive) ammunition...

The mechs actually store water and extract the hydrogen from that as needed.

If the engine is damaged in such a way that there is a breach of the plasma's containment it would just jet out in a flash. Sure its cooling rapidly and really isn't any danger to any except those very close to it, and not protected.

Catalyst Game Labs went out of their way to establish a logical consistency with how their technology worked. As Blackace stated above they wanted to base their science fiction on real life plausibility.

If you want to read more about it check out Classic battletech Tactical Operations. That is the table top rule book for construction and customization.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 13 November 2012 - 08:44 PM.