3696 replies to this topic

[DeathofSelf]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Wow. I never said I had a problem understanding this game. But apparently I do now? Also alienation and exclusion are cool now I guess? And someone else liked it? I'm at a loss for words.

How does adding 3rd person camera change any of the concepts of heat management, role warfare, and weapon selection. You will still need to lead your shots and target sections of your enemy. All that changes is that for some people they don't get stock on that building as often and in some cases you might be able to see over a hill that you otherwise normally couldn't. And that somehow makes it a "thoughtless point and shoot game?"

Number one. I was reacting to your comments about the control system being too difficult to understand.
Number two. I never implied alienation or exclusion in any of my comments.
Number three. 3rd person view has no effect on the controls, all of our comments up to this point have been about your thoughts on the control system. As pretty much everyone has stated, 3rd person will allow people to see around corners and over hills. This is an unfair advantage to anyone not using 3rd person. Also, 3rd person will break the feel of the game, this is a sim, not an arcade style game.

[Bishop Steiner]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Forums are not representative of the player base.

they are representative of the part of the base dedicated enough to give a crap. And those are the players who won't just jump ship when the next shiny thing shows up.

PGI/IGN has spent far too much time catering to the casual/f2p crowd already.

Casuals, and free players don't fund the game. So catering to them over those who DO, is idiotic.

[Aegis Kleais]

Protection, on 14 November 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

1) Still offers a view of the terrain - judging distances or planning movements is much easier for 3rd person than first.

2) Too many assets: what about weapons fire? If a laser is fired, do we see where it originates? Do we see it at all? Do we see the same amount of it as the first person player would (and even if we did, a 3rd person player would be able to discern where it was fired from).

3) Destructible environments - supposed to be part of the game at some point. Do we just not see all the knocked down trees and fences? Or do they appear that way instantly when we get Line of sight? Again, with third person, I'd only need a small amount of that information to discern a mech's location.

4) These are not tanks - parts count and move. If I could see an Atlas's arm, only, in first person, do I get to see the whole Atlas in third person, or just a floating arm?

5) Glitchy and exploitable. You're adding more, very difficult algorithms to an already buggy game, and hoping that it wont be able to be exploited or abuse. If it is, the advantage will always be in favour of the 3rd person.

This kind of thing isn't acceptable on a competitive level. Third person needs to be segregated to a newbies only section.

If you're familiar with Photo editing, you'd see a masked effect. Yes, if the 1st person could only see part of an arm then you'd only see part of the arm 'floating' in space. It's unrealistic, but so is the ability to spectate your Mech from some invisible hovering entity (make no qualms, I am not pro-3rd person, I'm just looking for solutions)

Any renderable effect, be it lasers, Mechs, smoke, etc, that is outside the FOV and POV of a 1st person view from their Mech would not be visible to them. The 3rd person would simply work to help them with their orientation and spatial issues.

[PropagandaWar]

So humans are really getting dumber as time goes on. That or MWO's numbers are dismal. I surley hope they aren't but why else would they cave. If they do this I hope we have different servers. let the wusses play on one and us "hardcore" types play on another.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Orzorn, on 14 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

You'd still have to split the community, or else you'll get people using it to peek around corners.

Well my idea was to just put it on spectator mode for dead viewers. It wouldn't offer hardly any advantage at all to people trying to warn allies with the vision. Shouting out "He's behind you!" on vent really isn't going to turn the tide of a battle. I'd rather get a better seat of the action instead of being locked in the view of a cockpit of a Mech I'm not even in. You could lock it from 1 angle, straight forward from behind the Mech, and that would still be really cool.(And you'd not be able to see behind the pilot in this case)

[SeaWolf2k]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Forums are not representative of the player base.

Interesting statement. I am curious just how big the actual player base is, and what percentage of the ACTUAL player base wants this.

[SVK Puskin]

Kribson, on 14 November 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

They should absolutley introduce 3rd person for the people that have problems steering their mech. Moreover there should be an option to activate an aim bot for people having problems with that. Another great idea would be a to add an infinite ammo and armor mode, cause i noticed some people find it difficult to evade enemy fire...

Whatever you do...in the end the game should become as boring and least challenging as possible

WTF? You are absolutely crazy! No way!

[DeathofSelf]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

• Your map also gives you a view of the terrain - from space.
  
• I don't see that being an issue since they track who killed who anyway.
  
• True but a limited case and how is that different from hearing mech footsteps or seeing the glow of Atlas eyes?
  
• How is this a problem?
  
• Not anymore so than shooting/hit detection as is.

You just side stepped/oversimplified every point he made, well done.

[Riven Cale]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Damage indicators give away when you're getting hit by lasers in the back.

Not with Tag. Say goodbye to stealth spotters (along with a number of other tactics pretty essential to anyone in a light mech in particular).

Also, add me to the legion voicing the opinion of no. If the rationale is easier user experience for entry level players there are plenty of alternatives for improving that user experience that don't resort to neutering the game play style.

[Weaselball]

First, my only REAL concern(s):

- Hopping into 3rd person view would give you a view of the battlefield you normally wouldnt be allowed, such as peeking over hills without actually exposing yourself to enemy fire.

- If you DID make it so only 3rd Person Players could fight only other 3PP's you'd split the community, and it is already small.

A suggestion:

Apparently the discussion of adding 3rd person view to mechs came about because new players were having difficulty grasping their torso and feet locations separate of each other. Well why not add a toggleable "newbie-friendly" hud that experienced players can disable to better show their current relation?

You could have a much larger, much more prominent indicator showing your leg facing direction compared to your torso facing direction. You could also have the throttle shown larger, as I've seen many many new players forget their running into a wall while trying to shoot a mech.

Maybe even have a warning indicator (in the newbie hud only) that flashes if you twist to far, or to your torso's extent.

TL;DR just add a newbie-friendly, toggleable HUD that better shows your torso to leg relations. No need for a 3rd person view to accomplish this.

[Comguard]

Why not just add tutorials? Next step with PGI-logic would be to remove weapon groups, because it is to complicated.

Of course it is confusing for new players at first, but it is the job of the devs to implement mechanics (like tutorials) that help integrating noobs.

Really wonder if they do this on purpose, enraging the players. First the 1.4-pseudo-DHS, now this...

Next week we will see a buff of the Gauss because the Cataphract will lead to a new rise of the dual-Gauss mechs. My guess is that's why the variant of the Cataphract with two ballistic slots in the arms was included, to make the Gaussaphract possible.

[Axident]

No, no, no, and no. It would no longer be Mechwarrior. You would lose this customer.

From what I've seen in matches the devs do have a problem. That problem is that they've got a large number of players coming in who've only played specific games on specific platforms and these have had a really bad effect on gaming: they dumb it down and hold the players hand every step of the way: levels are small and linear; anything important flashes like a beacon; they have auto aim, and anything you do, no matter how minor, you're praised for it. Walk 3 steps? That's an achievement. Since for a lot of players this is all they've ever known, this is what they expect.

Now, drop these players into a game that requires you do some homework. That's serious culture shock.

They join in without knowing anything about the basic principles and mechanics, weapons specs, key bindings and then they promptly explode when they fire because they didn't know anything about heat management. I know the game is still in beta, but it's really going to need a training ground for new pilots, just as in the originals. Some simple obstacle and targets courses. Even give them a blinking acheivement icon if it makes them happy.

At the very least, perhaps put tips or infographic pages up during match loading screens: Minumum range of an LRM is...; you can toggle missile flaps with...; friendly fire is always on...; the torso can turn independently of the legs...

[RG Notch]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

100ton walking upright robots are realistic.

This is what you are reduced to now? I guess you run out of valid arguments its on to the invalid nonsense. Don't worry pal they aren't going back on it so the easy button is coming. I for one welcome our pop tarting overlords.

[Targetloc]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Forums are not representative of the player base.

They are, however, a fairly good representation of players who spend the most.

[Alois Hammer]

Kilgore, on 14 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Russ said enough to tell me he's aware of how important it will be to implement it correctly.

This was after he said it wouldn't happen, then flip-flopped, right?

Sorry, his credibility is far too damaged at this point for me to accept...well...much of anything he says, since the obvious response is now "And how long until this becomes another 'no third person view' moment in MWO history?"

And this situation is not helped at all by the entire claim of 3rd person being used to act as a tutorial to help people who can't figure out the controls.

Greyfyl, on 14 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I wonder if PGI has figured out yet that the community does not want 3rd person?

More relevant: Do they care?

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Isn't that kind of like how computers are all interacted with the same way and how all tablets work more or less the same? I guess that's a bad thing now? I guess we should throw out the concept of user expectations: http://en.wikipedia....er_expectations

Of course you're right, what was I thinking. Okay folks, no more genres- all games must adhere to The One True View and Control Scheme™ and all others must be banned for violating User Expectations.

Quote

Now imagine the flaming a new player receives for saying that they find the game difficult.

I get flamed, you get flamed, we're still here. Those who get out of the kitchen because they don't think they can take the heat aren't my problem, but their own.

[DraigUK]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Forums are not representative of the player base.

Ya right. Just not yours this time around, and over 1000 people also disagree with you and are probably the 1000+ who spent the most money on this game already and the 1000+ who will spend the MOST money on this game in days to come if they stop being so idiotic in the way they are taking this game.

Edited by DraigUK, 14 November 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Zeus X]

Why is 3rd person EVEN A REMOTE TOPIC?????

This is one way to kill off your player base, not increase it.

[Quxudica]

ENS Puskin, on 14 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

WTF? You are absolutely crazy! No way!

I believe the post you quoted was something called biting sarcasm. Admittedly this form of communication rarely translates well via text.

[Soy]

Vollstrecker, on 14 November 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

lol

So you're responding to my posts regarding something not really related to them and then I'm vain for assuming you're talking about me (while still referring to my posts). Brilliant, sir.

"Threatening PGI is asinine. All players opinions have a right to be expressed and validated equally."

This is the original argument you got upset over. I wonder why. Heh.

Do you want the last word or something? You've stretched this tangent across what, 4, 5 pages? Do you need the last word? Go ahead, I've got to get back to enjoying this game and not crying about features that all types of players can choose to utilize or not.

[Zylo]

Looking at some of the replies on this thread I think I know who can't figure out 1st person combat...

Anyway, that thought aside I think the focus really should be on teaching new players the first person game. Let them learn in a safe environment and I think that alone would help resolve many of the complaints about needing 3rd person view to assist with manuvering.