311 replies to this topic

[Watchit]

TalonOne, on 08 December 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

It's even worse. Trial mechs are encouraging players to run headfirst into the enemy without thinking. Me, too, I'm afraid.
The think is: IF I play smart, take long times between shots to not overheat in seconds, try to support my team.... I still get shred to pieces if somebody in a half-decend build decides to come after me.
And in C-Bills it doesn't make a big difference If my Mech survives or gets blasted to kingdom come.
Its about . what, 90.000 C-Bills for a really good round in a Trial? Something that is not very easy to accomblish and takes a lot of time.
Its about 60.000 for a loss, something you don't even have to participate the course of the game. You get that if you get killed in the first Minute and drop out of the game.

So actually the much easier, faster and less tedious way to get some Cash for the first Mech is just running blindly into the enemy, getting killed, leave game, pick the next trial Mech and jump into the next game. Rinse, repeat.
Sounds like fun, huh?
Tutorials are not gonna change that, I'm afraid.

The really bad thing about this: This senseless Grind has been around since before Open Beta.
And it still sucks out all the fun I want to have from this game.
Don't get me wrong, grinding for something you want is alright, but to grind for something that is essential to have fun with a game... just no.
I have better things to do with my precious time than that.

Yeah that's been a problem for a while :\ It sucks, hopefully the devs will think of something to fix that soon. I was thinking maybe increase the rewards for winning in a trial, and letting players make minor mechlab changes with them, to give new players a better feeling for customizing their own mech.

[The Helepolis]

This was one of the most beautiful posts I've ever been graced with. I thank you from the kindness in my heart. DEVS, LISTEN TO THIS, DON'T MAKE THIS AS GRINDY AS WoT. *capslock off* Honestly, the huge flaws aside, I love this game, but this is just too damn slow, I mean honestly! It seems like the only real way to make money is Founders, Hero, or Trial mechs, don't get me wrong, those mechs arent bad. But when I cant even use my other ones cause the repairs will be too damn high. What can a guy do but grind? Please PG, these battles should reward us with a lot more, afterall, we're the highest paid individuals in the universe. Not every military guy gets a Mech!

[GeneralAtrox]

PANZERBUNNY, on 07 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Poor people having to "grind" through 20-25 games.

People who think this game is a grind are absolute tossers.

I don't want you to misunderstand what I meant by grinding.

My idea of grinding is doing something uninteresting and boring, being forced to play with trial mechs or light (once i've afforded it) until I can get my favorite Mech (the Atlas) but that is 50 matches away or more. I'm used to tanking the big guns, not scouting with the toilet paper you call a light mech which gets killed within a few shots.

ollo, on 07 December 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

But point of the game is to have mechs exploding. A lot. It doen't matter if you think or not, with better matchmaking more and more equally skilled players will be in the same game. Which means people will die more, after all the best matches are the ones with only 1 or 2 mechs standing. That's what we her for, we will kill, we will die, and we don't want to be punished for being the one that saves the win by going on a suicide mission.

Perhaps, this is just an idea, disable the "R&R" cost for beginners or give them a much larger C-Bill % gain to counter it temporarily, maybe that will balance out this "grind" and "annoyance" with having to pay the costs when so small and inexperienced. This could go on until they have gained 500xp-1000xp (maybe just enough for their first skill & Mech) or something of their first Mech.

Edited by GeneralAtrox, 09 December 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Taryys]

Keep in mind that, currently, with most builds, even with a loss, you should still make money (your mileage will vary). However, if you have a completely blinged out ride: ES,FF,XL, dHS, and Artemis you most likely will have a considerable loss, especially if your torsos get blown out with an XL; we already know the FF and Artemis are crazy expensive to maintain. That is part of the balance between technology, pilot skill, and the win/loss. The win/loss bonuses help to mitigate that too.

ollo, on 07 December 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

But point of the game is to have mechs exploding. A lot. It dosen't matter if you think or not, with better matchmaking more and more equally skilled players will be in the same game. Which means people will die more, after all the best matches are the ones with only 1 or 2 mechs standing. That's what we her for, we will kill, we will die, and we don't want to be punished for being the one that saves the win by going on a suicide mission.

The primary problem with this is that trial mechs really have a place in the game for new players and veteran players too. For vets it will be farming CBills so the can pay for their expensive rides if things take a turn for the worse. So, the trial mech is not just balancing it for new players, but also vet players too. My suggestions address pretty much all of the grind issues and are balanced for the Vet player issues too. The current system of trial mechs can work well if adjusted appropriately.

New User flow is coming the Dec 18 patch, so hopefully we can see a great start to this issue:


Economics/New User Phase 0.5
Target Date: December 18th - 95%
Status: Final Stable/Stage Playtesting
Notes: Tuning Changes - Detailed post on December 18th

New User Flow and Trial Mechs

GeneralAtrox, on 09 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Perhaps, this is just an idea, disable the "R&R" cost for beginners or give them a much larger C-Bill % gain to counter it temporarily, maybe that will balance out this "grind" and "annoyance" with having to pay the costs when so small and inexperienced. This could go on until they have gained 500xp-1000xp (maybe just enough for their first skill & Mech) or something of their first Mech.

[GeneralAtrox]

You are right, I see the more expensive parts making it a difficult choice between earning money and generally just fighting.

I'm just going on what I've experienced as a new user

[QuantumButler]

PGI doesn't care about new users, and many founders consider them second class citizens who deserve nothing but contempt, that they should suffer through the trial mech grind until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

[MustrumRidcully]

QuantumButler, on 10 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

PGI doesn't care about new users, and many founders consider them second class citizens who deserve nothing but contempt, that they should suffer through the trial mech grind until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I hate founders.

Mustrum "Feeling Emo today" RIdcully

[QuantumButler]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I hate founders.

Mustrum "Feeling Emo today" RIdcully

You and me both.

[Vlad Ward]

Yeah, Golds especially.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 10 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Taryys]

yea, they are the freaking worst, I tell ya. Worst!

Vlad Ward, on 10 December 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Yeah, Golds especially.

New User Flow coming soon! Yea!

QuantumButler, on 10 December 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

PGI doesn't care about new users, and many founders consider them second class citizens who deserve nothing but contempt, that they should suffer through the trial mech grind until they pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

[QuantumButler]

Taryys, on 10 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

yea, they are the freaking worst, I tell ya. Worst!





New User Flow coming soon! Yea!

And I'd be delighted if it was any good, but PGI has lost any trust I ever had in them ages ago so I will believe it when I see it.

But even if it is good, it's most likely too little, too late, first impressions are EVERYTHING with f2p games, the user experience should have been sorted out long before going Open Beta, but MWO's first impression has been exceedingly lackluster.

[MustrumRidcully]

It will be intersting to see what the new user flow will bring. Dec 18ths, you say? It would be a good time - new players may want to check out new games during the holidays.

Taryys, on 10 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

yea, they are the freaking worst, I tell ya. Worst!

I trust your opinion, because you're a Founder, not one of them Freeloaders!

Mustrum "Schizophrenia must be difficult to live with Mustrum - you have no idea, Ridcully" Ridcully

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 December 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Signed, because I saw this spammed just one too many times in a thread

[Taryys]

I have no idea what you are talking about!!

Lefty Lucy, on 10 December 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Signed, because I saw this spammed just one too many times in a thread

[Hauser]

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

(FIRST POST)

Maybe I missed it in the wall of text, but have you considered the implications of player rank based match making? It would somewhat separate the new players from the veterans and without separating the player base either.

It wouldn't decrease the learning curve but it would make playing the game a bit more forgiving of first time mistakes. Everybody would be making them.

Edited by Hauser, 10 December 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Taryys]

Yea, a stat based match making system would keep the newbs separate from the vets, which is a primary aim of stat based match making, or, more specifically, get people of a similar skill level playing together within a certain tolerance.

[Hauser]

Cool. Looks like you got everything covered then. I like the reduced feature set approach to the mechlab and limited premium time (first one is free).

I'd add the "First win of the day" booster to keep people coming back to play at least one game. I've seen that work fairly well in league of legends.

I'm not sure about pre-post game lobby and built in voip. From what I've seen in League of legends the lobby was just a space to shout at your team mates. From what I've seen in Team Fortress 2 and Halo either allot of verbal abuse goes through voip or nobody is talking (no mic, not interested, not able).

Edited by Hauser, 10 December 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[Taryys]

The booster thing is a bit above and beyond what was trying to accomplish with this post, but yea, more carrot stuff, achievements would be good.

I also worry about the lobby thing, but in the end I think it will be more of a benefit than a hinderance, especially if the community self monitors itself to call out and report the ******** where they are.

Hauser, on 10 December 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Cool. Looks like you got everything covered then. I like the reduced feature set approach to the mechlab and limited premium time (first one is free).

I'd add the "First win of the day" booster to keep people coming back to play at least one game. I've seen that work fairly well in league of legends.

I'm not sure about pre-post game lobby and built in voip. From what I've seen in League of legends the lobby was just a space to shout at your team mates. From what I've seen in Team Fortress 2 and Halo either allot of verbal abuse goes through voip or nobody is talking (no mic, not interested, not able).

[Dukov Nook]

Excepting the 3rd person view, I can be on board with this.

However, 3rd person is a dealbreaker for me. I posted a suggestion for a better alternative in the suggestions section that isn't gameplay breaking.

[Taryys]

Yea, I do not want it either, which is why I relegated it to the tutorial/arena phases where it will not see actual game use.
People can learn to work with torso twisting there and not take 3rd to the live game.

What were your suggestions? Feel free to post a link here.
I am not necessarily looking at getting into the discussion here, but the another viewpoint would be nice.